Is there a "hidden" data limit?

[bubba_mudd]

Like what Comcast is accused of, cutting off users with unlimited plans because they are using so much bandwidth.  I ask because I will want to listen to Sirius Satellite Radio (Howard Stern) and AOL Radio streaming on-line. 

[imoish]

If the Blackberry contracts much like the iphone one, then the limit is a soft cap of 5 gb (meaning you can roughly go over a few times and be okay, usually depending on the extent of data usage). Honestly you really won't hit that ever unless you're downloading massive videos usually via tethering (which att doesn't condone anyways) or torrenting using a 3g connection. I'd probably reccomend not doing either using it. xD

You probably should be fine though honestly if you're using it properly and there's a lot of streaming radio apps already I think it'd be okay. (they'll warn you supposedly if you're about to get overage charges etc. )


Message Edited by imoish on 07-27-2008 09:51:25 AM

[crabby440]

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bubba_mudd wrote:
Like what Comcast is accused of, cutting off users with unlimited plans because they are using so much bandwidth.  I ask because I will want to listen to Sirius Satellite Radio (Howard Stern) and AOL Radio streaming on-line. 

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if you could please tell me how you intend to listen to Sirius on the iphone3g i would love to hear it.

[bubba_mudd]

I have a subscription, so I can listen to Sirius Radio on their website.  I just assumed I could browse to their page. *shrugs*  Not sure if they use flash for their radio player, though...That wouldn't work since iphone doesn't have flash.

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clasby440 wrote:

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bubba_mudd wrote:
Like what Comcast is accused of, cutting off users with unlimited plans because they are using so much bandwidth.  I ask because I will want to listen to Sirius Satellite Radio (Howard Stern) and AOL Radio streaming on-line. 

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if you could please tell me how you intend to listen to Sirius on the iphone3g i would love to hear it.

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[imoish]

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bubba_mudd wrote:
I have a subscription, so I can listen to Sirius Radio on their website.  I just assumed I could browse to their page. *shrugs*  Not sure if they use flash for their radio player, though...That wouldn't work since iphone doesn't have flash.

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clasby440 wrote:

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bubba_mudd wrote:
Like what Comcast is accused of, cutting off users with unlimited plans because they are using so much bandwidth.  I ask because I will want to listen to Sirius Satellite Radio (Howard Stern) and AOL Radio streaming on-line. 

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if you could please tell me how you intend to listen to Sirius on the iphone3g i would love to hear it.

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Yeah, I just thought about that too... you might be able to you'll have to see.
data wise, you should be fine though = )

[bubba_mudd]

Hmm.  guess Sirius is out :

2. What is the recommended hardware and software for using the SIRIUS player? For the best experience, we recommend:

• PC – Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista or higher
• Mac – OS 9.0 or higher, including Mac OS X
• Connection Speed – ISDN or higher.
• Browser – Safari 1.0 or higher, Netscape 7, Firefox 1.5 or higher, and Internet Explorer 6.0 or higher, AOL version 5.0 or higher
• Flash - version 7.0 or higher.

[bubba_mudd]

I may have found a work-around on Apple's forum.  Looks like Sirius & XM will work on the iPhone by streaming through a 3rd party.  Definitely worth a try.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1147362&start=0&tstart=0

[imoish]

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bubba_mudd wrote:
I may have found a work-around on Apple's forum.  Looks like Sirius & XM will work on the iPhone by streaming through a 3rd party.  Definitely worth a try.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1147362&start=0&tstart=0

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this is relevant to my interests . My dad has an XM subscrip I can probably take advantage of now..

[DWC1 ACE - Professor]

The limit is not hidden. It's a 5 Gig per month soft cap.  There is no penalty or extra fee if you go over this amount however if you do it repeatedly they reserve the right to terminate your plan or change the terms.

[bubba_mudd]

That thread is old (Dec 2007), so I'll be interested in seeing how it works...once I get my phone...in 2052.......

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imoish wrote:

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bubba_mudd wrote:
I may have found a work-around on Apple's forum.  Looks like Sirius & XM will work on the iPhone by streaming through a 3rd party.  Definitely worth a try.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1147362&start=0&tstart=0

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this is relevant to my interests . My dad has an XM subscrip I can probably take advantage of now..

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[bubba_mudd]

Thanks.  I doubt if I'll ever go over that.

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DWC1 wrote:

The limit is not hidden. It's a 5 Gig per month soft cap.  There is no penalty or extra fee if you go over this amount however if you do it repeatedly they reserve the right to terminate your plan or change the terms.

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[Zandora ACE - Guru]

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DWC1 wrote:

The limit is not hidden. It's a 5 Gig per month soft cap.  There is no penalty or extra fee if you go over this amount however if you do it repeatedly they reserve the right to terminate your plan or change the terms.

---

Hmmm...I thought the 5gig per month softcap was for tethering. Since the iPhone can't tether (without being jailbroken (?)) I think there is no cap.

I think people confuse the 5gb with tethering softcap with the phone internet usage. I thought that phone internet usage was truly unlimited...

Can anyone find the T's & C's to confirm or refute this?

Personally, I think it's pretty hard to use 5gb on a phone, but then I don't stream anything...could be different with streaming involved.

Message Edited by csp_gp on 07-27-2008 10:35:33 AM

[imoish]

yeah 5gigs is a pretty large range if you're not pirating..o.O
I'm hoping along with the sirius/XM merger that we'll see maybe a decent iphone app for this haha
that'd be a dream..

[DWC1 ACE - Professor]

Make of this what you will.  Most people interpret this to mean 5 Gig which seems to be the "reasonable" standard that at&t has established.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp

2) WIRELESS DATA SERVICE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

I. GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLICABLE TO AT&T'S WIRELESS DATA SERVICES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, FEATURES THAT MAY BE USED WITH WIRELESS DATA SERVICES AND WIRELESS CONTENT.

AT&T provides wireless data services, including but not limited to, features that may be used with wireless data services and wireless content (Services).  The absolute capacity of the wireless data network is limited.  Accordingly, service is only provided for circumscribed purposes and pricing for Data Services is device dependent, based on the transmit and receive capacity of each device.

And:

Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows.  You may not send solicitations to AT&T's wireless subscribers without their consent.  You may not use the Services other than as intended by AT&T and applicable law. Plans are for individual, non-commercial use only and are not for resale.   AT&T may, but is not required to, monitor your compliance, or the compliance of other subscribers, with AT&T's terms, conditions, or policies.

Message Edited by DWC1 on 07-27-2008 10:39:45 AM

[imoish]

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csp_gp wrote:

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DWC1 wrote:

The limit is not hidden. It's a 5 Gig per month soft cap.  There is no penalty or extra fee if you go over this amount however if you do it repeatedly they reserve the right to terminate your plan or change the terms.

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Hmmm...I thought the 5gig per month softcap was for tethering. Since the iPhone can't tether (without being jailbroken (?)) I think there is no cap.

I think people confuse the 5gb with tethering softcap with the phone internet usage. I thought that phone internet usage was truly unlimited...

Can anyone find the T's & C's to confirm or refute this?

Message Edited by csp_gp on 07-27-2008 10:33:25 AM

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Honestly I haven't seen any T's & C's saying a limit, only the blackberry plans.
I assume then its either 5 gigs or unlimited but tethering is strictly prohibited.
good thing I just use the utorrent web ui and my home pc anyways.


and honestly.. don't just be a tard and try to use as much data as much as possible and you'll be okay



Message Edited by imoish on 07-27-2008 10:40:06 AM

[lito88]

False advertising? I think so. It clearly says unlimited data.

[imoish]

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lito88 wrote:
False advertising? I think so. It clearly says unlimited data.

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I mean, its unlimited under legitimate use. If you're using it in illegal ways or for tethering, you're most likely doing it and going to go over in some way (torrenting, video downloads, the like)

basically if you use the internet properly on it, you shouldn't have any problems. = )

[Zandora ACE - Guru]

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DWC1 wrote:

Make of this what you will.  Most people interpret this to mean 5 Gig which seems to be the "reasonable" standard that at&t has established.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp

2) WIRELESS DATA SERVICE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

I. GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLICABLE TO AT&T'S WIRELESS DATA SERVICES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, FEATURES THAT MAY BE USED WITH WIRELESS DATA SERVICES AND WIRELESS CONTENT.

AT&T provides wireless data services, including but not limited to, features that may be used with wireless data services and wireless content (Services).  The absolute capacity of the wireless data network is limited.  Accordingly, service is only provided for circumscribed purposes and pricing for Data Services is device dependent, based on the transmit and receive capacity of each device.

And:

Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows.  You may not send solicitations to AT&T's wireless subscribers without their consent.  You may not use the Services other than as intended by AT&T and applicable law. Plans are for individual, non-commercial use only and are not for resale.   AT&T may, but is not required to, monitor your compliance, or the compliance of other subscribers, with AT&T's terms, conditions, or policies.

Message Edited by DWC1 on 07-27-2008 10:39:45 AM

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I did a search for "5" in the T's & C's. I found the 5gb limit only in two places. Both were under the tethering / data connect plans. "5 gb" or "5 gigabytes" were not mentioned anywhere else. So, I would read that the 5 gb limit only covered the dataconnect and tethering plans; data usage on the phone itself is unlimted. At least, that is how I would interpret this.

DATACONNECT PLANS
DataConnect plans may ONLY be used with AT&T-certified LaptopConnect (PC Data) Cards and eligible AT&T-certified customer owned and maintained (COAM) devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email, and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force, and field service automation). The parties agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 gigabytes in a month.  Prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your service.

{snip}

PDA/BLACKBERRY PLANS WITH TETHERING
PDA/BlackBerry plans with Tethering may ONLY be used with AT&T-certified RIM BlackBerry devices and PDAs  for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email, and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force, and field service automation). PDA/BlackBerry plans with Tethering may be used to tether such PDA and BlackBerry devices to a Personal Computer. The parties agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 GB in a month.  Prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your service.

Message Edited by csp_gp on 07-27-2008 10:59:28 AM

[UrAwFuL]

Well, 5GB is somewhat close to "unlimited" unless you watch YouTube 24/7 but I still don't think it would reach up to 5GB.

I dunno, I never really monitor my bandwidth usage, but just by checking my e-mails and surfing through this site I used up 4,380,346 bytes.. so thats like four megabytes down the drain.

[crabby440]

as to the original post GOOD NEWS!!!!! the author of uSirius is currently at work on a iPhone 2.0 app.

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http://www.millardsoftware.com/content/usirius-and-uxm-iphone-20

uSirius and uXM - iPhone 2.0?Tue, 07/22/2008 - 13:00 — jsm174

I've received several emails asking if uSirius and uXM would be released for iPhone 2.0. The answer is most definitely YES!

I don't want to give any specific time frame, but I am hoping soon. (Missing Octane at work!)

Just to give a quick update, I recently purchased a Mac Mini and the iPhone developers license. The open source libraries uSirius and uXM use (ffmpeg, tidylib, libxml, and libcurl) have all been compiled successfully using the SDK.

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Message Edited by clasby440 on 07-27-2008 06:26:42 PM

[DWC1 ACE - Professor]

You can't just search for 5 without ignoring this:

Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation,

This is the same language that is in the old data connect plans that did not mention a 5 Gig softcap.  MY interpretation is that 5 Gig's is the trigger for this since it's consistent with the level that at&t already defines as excessive use that adversely impact the wireless network.  You may choose to make your own interpretation.  It's the only indication that at&t has given to date.

[Zandora ACE - Guru]

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DWC1 wrote:

You can't just search for 5 without ignoring this:

Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation,

This is the same language that is in the old data connect plans that did not mention a 5 Gig softcap.  MY interpretation is that 5 Gig's is the trigger for this since it's consistent with the level that at&t already defines as excessive use that adversely impact the wireless network.  You may choose to make your own interpretation.  It's the only indication that at&t has given to date.

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You're most likely right. I will never come close to 5gb of use, so it affects me not at all realistically

Just arguing semantics. But if I were ever close or over, I would argue that AT&T doesn't specifically limit phone data to 5gb, because it does *explicitly* limit data usage under dataconnect and tethering plans.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that the phrase you highlighted above may be geared towards spammers or hackers rather than data usage, since, as stated earlier, AT&T *specifically* list soft limits for tethering and dataconnect, but not regarding phone data usage.

To-may-to, to-mah-to

However, in general, I don't think anyone who is using the phone without tethering would go over 5gb on a regular basis. It seems pretty impossible, unless as a previous poster has stated, someone is streaming 24/7.

[mu+e]

Pardon the completely idiotic question, but are we talking about a 5GB cap per month/bill?

[UrAwFuL]

Honestly, I don't really get the topic.

So basically don't go over 5GB each month.

That's it, end of story. Correct?

[mu+e]

In essence.  There's a clash, however: it's nearly impossible to cross the 5GB mark if you're using your iPhone properly.  By that, I mean doing anything that can be done straight out of the box.  If you jailbreak your iPhone and use it to, say, torrent large files repeatedly, you're on grounds of crossing the 5GB mark.  Doing this enough times may or may not have ramifications in regards to your data plan and usage.

The clash comes from the idea of false advertising.  Unlimited Date Usage should be just that: unlimited.  When, in truth, we have unlimited data coverage... so long as we're using the phone as is. /Unmodified.

[UrAwFuL]

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mu+e wrote:
In essence.  There's a clash, however: it's nearly impossible to cross the 5GB mark if you're using your iPhone properly.  By that, I mean doing anything that can be done straight out of the box.  If you jailbreak your iPhone and use it to, say, torrent large files repeatedly, you're on grounds of crossing the 5GB mark.  Doing this enough times may or may not have ramifications in regards to your data plan and usage.

The clash comes from the idea of false advertising.  Unlimited Date Usage should be just that: unlimited.  When, in truth, we have unlimited data coverage... so long as we're using the phone as is. /Unmodified.

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Yeah, I was kind of expecting the iPhone to have an option to be a modem though, legitimately.

But yeah, 5GB does seem "unlimited" since you can't cross it and the count resets each month.

[mu+e]

Truthfully speaking, this doesn't bother me, either.  I have no intentions to jailbreak my Phone - the things that do use bandwidth - Youtube, notably - are things that I use on and off.  I'd get nowhere near ever crossing the 5GB cap, so, yes; it's not a worry of mine.
It's still my humble opinion that Unlimited Data should actually be what it is, however.  It's technically false advertising.

[dkallan]

By the way, this is an excerpt from the AT&T's iPhone terms document, which I apparently signed at some point during Apple's iPhone 3G purchase process, even though I was never quite told about it or presented with an opportunity to see it:

Prohibited and Permissible Uses:

Data Service sessions may be conducted only for the following purposes:

(i) Internet browsing;
(ii) email; and
(iii) corporate intranet access (including access to corporate email, customer relationship management, sales force automation, and field service automation applications).

Prohibited uses include, but are not limited to, using services:

(i) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, without limitation, web camera posts or broadcasts, continuous jpeg file transfers, automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, PEER-TO-PEER (P2P) FILE SHARING, automated functions or any other machine-to-machine applications;
(ii) as substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections;
(iii) for voice over IP;
(iv) in conjunction with WWAN or other applications or devices which aggregate usage from multiple sources prior to transmission;
(v) using the services for any activity that adversely affects the ability of other people or systems to use either the services or other parties' internet-based resources including, but not limited to excessive consumption of network or system resources (whether intentional or unintentional) and "denial of service" (DoS) attacks against another network host or individual user; or
(vi) interference with or disruption of other network users, network services or network equipment.

Except for CONTENT formatted in accordance with AT&T’S WIRELESS CONTENT standards, unlimited plans cannot be used for uploading, downloading or streaming of video content (e.g. movies, TV), music or games. Furthermore, unlimited plans (except for DataConnect and Blackberry Tethered) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits, other phone/PDA-to-computer accessories, Bluetooth® or any other wireless technology) to laptops, PCs, or other equipment for any purpose. Service is not intended to provide full-time connections, and the Service may be discontinued after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage. AT&T reserves the right to (i) limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny Service and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network and (ii) protect its wireless network from harm, which may impact legitimate data flows.

So, from the first section, the only permissible forms of usage are Internet browsing (does that mean HTML Web browsing?), e-mail, and corporate intranet access (does this mean VPN?). Really? No MobileMe? But I can use VPN to access a corporate intranet and then do whatever I want? Run high-bandwidth apps on my company's LAN and then tunnel the traffic across IPSec on the 3G network?

What about the statement that "using services with server devices or with host computer applications, ... including... automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, ... automated functions or any other machine-to-machine applications" is prohibited? So, no connecting to servers? Doesn't that eliminate Web servers, e-mail servers and VPN servers, too? How about non-HTML content over Web servers? XML/Web services? Is the App Store technically prohibited over 3G? Which built-in iPhone and approved App Store applications are therefore prohibited? Mocha VNC? RSS feeds? What do they mean by "telemetry applications"? Doesn't "telemetry" mean remote transmission of data? Isn't location awareness a form of telemetry? How about public high scores, or cookies, or sync metadata? For that matter, isn't all wireless communication a form of telemetry?

Also, apparently there is no downloading or streaming of video content or music, except for content that meets AT&T's wireless content standards? So, ignoring the previously mentioned no-server restriction, what qualifies as acceptable content? YouTube? Pandora/Tuner/Last.fm/AOL Radio? I thought that this is why people went with 3G: streaming video and music.

If I read this literally and logically, I can only come to the conclusion that in fact the only permissible usage of AT&T's iPhone unlimited data plan is no usage at all.

It seems to me that the "$30 Unlimited Data Plan" description posted prominently as part of every iPhone plan information sheet should have included an asterisk. As a self-proclaimed "power user", I like to maximize the capabilities of my iPhone. With an "unlimited" data plan, I would expect to be able to download and use iPhone applications, enjoy streaming media content, access my home network services and much, much more--all without worrying that AT&T is one day going to drop a huge bill on me or terminate my service because their lawyers suddenly decide that my Pandora application, legitimately purchased in the App Store, constitutes a prohibited use of the 3G network. The idea of "basically unlimited... but just don't use it too much or in unusual ways" is a little too vague, arbitrary and subjective. This kind of contractual wording troubles me because it seems to imply that, basically, all forms of usage are technically prohibited and that AT&T can selectively penalize anyone for any usage patterns they wish.

I guess I'll just have to trust that AT&T will enforce their policy with good faith in mind.

[LanceRobbins24]

I just called AT&T customer service and was very specific in my checking with them (brenda matthys was who I spoke to) and they did verify the iphone unlimited data is truley unlimited.  I asked her if there is a 5GB soft cap and she said no.  I asked her if I streamed Pandora radio 10 hours a day for 5 days a week while at work would that cause any concern of being charged more or have my service cut......"not a problem at all".  I asked her to put that in my file just in case there are any issues, she said she would but I have nothing to worry about.  At least if there is a problem I can reference my file that I called to make 100% clear that I was informed it is UNLIMITED.

[crabby440]

well i made a 8064x4536 black bitmap image (104MB) i am going to email it to my self 50 times and i will let you know if there is a soft cap or not