Re: iPhone Data Usage: Fighting the Man

[backpacker57]

FACTS?

Such as the unresponsiveness of AT&T Representatives that misrepresent the issues?

Please go back to you call center job at AT&T.

Users with unlimited plans could care less now -until AT&T changes the plans again and for those not in the know such as yourself--- get a reality check.

I guess the Verizon issues with "data" billing were exaggerated too?

[backpacker57]

Go to the Apple discussion forums--- I count more than 10

So is it just an anomaly or users have nothing better to do?

[Ksanil23]

This is not a very very rare issue. Have you counted all threads on ATT, Apple and other websites? I myself saw seral hundred threads going on. Have you counted all users in all the threads?

Also be aware that most of the iphone users from your figure of 16 million are old iphone customers with unlimited data plan even if they upgraded to iPhone4, so they don't care.

[satchev]

---

Ksanil23 wrote:

This is not a very very rare issue. Have you counted all threads on ATT, Apple and other websites? I myself saw seral hundred threads going on. Have you counted all users in all the threads?

Also be aware that most of the iphone users from your figure of 16 million are old iphone customers with unlimited data plan even if they upgraded to iPhone4, so they don't care.

---

Have you counted?  Are you certain that the users of all these sites are unique and not just the same person with different id's on multiple forums?  How many of those users have actually contacted AT&T instead of just ranting in various forums?  How many have taken the time to reset or restore their devices to rule out a setting or rogue app?

Even if it were 100,000 users experiencing the issue, that's only 10% of 1 Million users.  AT&T has activated over 5 million iPhone 4's.

That 100k users now looks miniscule.

Users of other devices on AT&T have reported similar problems.

So, if we assume the issue is not specific to the iPhone but rather  an AT&T user and assume another 100k users experienceing the problem, it becomes even rarer.  From what I have seen, I would say it's probably more accurate to assume 10's of thousands instead of hundreds of thousands of users experiencing the problem.

Once you consider that AT&T has over 90 million users, those experiencing problems are now .001111111% of the user base.  That is inconsequential when you look at the overall user base.  There may be a legit problem, there may not.  I believe the issue lies in a few areas:

• Those that have legitimate issues.
• Those that have no clue how data is calculated.
• Those that have not taken the time to make changes to their device to reduce the data consumption (i.e. email checking every 5 minutes, a rogue app doing push notifications, push notifications turned on in general)

[johninsj ACE - Professor]

---

backpacker57 wrote:

Go to the Apple discussion forums--- I count more than 10

So is it just an anomaly or users have nothing better to do?

---

I said there were about 10 people here who's usage counter didnt match between iPhone and AT&T, posting here. Those people have some kind of real problem. Not understanding when you use wireless data isn't AT&T or Apple's fault. I also pointed out that even if it were thousands of users, that represents a tiny percentage of people on the limited plans.

[DimentoGraven]

---

johninsj wrote:

Not understanding when you use wireless data isn't AT&T or Apple's fault.

---

I disagree considering that AT&T and Apple are the ones that should have provided the end user with tools to analyze their usage.  Again, if AT&T can tell us the date and time, down to the second, and duration, down to the second of each and every call every month, then they should be able to do the same for MMS text messaging and data sessions.

We're not being presented with a:

Sent/Received minutes:  434

Type of bill, as we are unfortunately having to suffer when it comes to data.  Since data has been commoditized on a per kb basis, just like our voice has been, then it's up to the provider to be able to provide us with sufficient data and not give us the, "Trust us" treatment.

You can't complain that these users aren't doing their due dilligence, and then fail to provide the appropriate tools for them to do that due dilligence, that's being intentionally arrogantly ignorant.

[johninsj ACE - Professor]

I'm not complaining at all... I am just saying that when I see these posts, some percentage of them are people using data, and then being suprised that they used data.

I make no judgement on the quality of the tools provided, or the intellegence of the users, or anything beyond that simple statement.

Once you weed out all the cases where people actually use the data they are charged for, you are left with a tiny number of users where the usage is truely inexplicable. Those people have some real AT&T-based or iOS-based problem, it would seem.

There are not many of those people.

[GeekBoy]

I just spent a few minutes going through my data usage stats for the last 3 weeks (Oct 12-Oct 31).  I rememeber all the huge discussion about data useage in the middle fo the night that was "unaccounted for", so I concentrated on that for this quick analysis.  Rather than post the full detail, I have deleted any detail which is obviously not related to any "overnight usage".  Now, I do nothing special over night.  I just plug in my phone and let it charge and do whatever data usage it is going to do.  I do tend to stay-up until around midnight on weeknights and later on weekends, also getting up between 5:00-7:30am weekdays, and later on weekneds.  Also, the large usage late at night on the 16th/17th was me moving some large data files around in rep fr a trip I was taking on the 17th.  Below is what remains:

DATE         TIME        KB
10/31     10:46 AM     125KB
10/31     12:30 AM     3131KB                             
10/30     11:23 PM     1740KB
...
10/30     08:13 AM     599KB
10/29     10:47 PM     7KB
...
10/29     09:17 AM     35KB
10/29     12:01 AM     2940KB
10/28     10:01 PM     458KB
...
10/28     07:59 AM     1899KB
10/27     10:34 PM     759KB
...
10/27     09:36 AM     9KB
10/26     10:23 PM     3124KB
...
10/26     08:25 AM     72KB
10/25     11:48 PM     700KB
...
10/25     06:26 PM     31KB
10/25     02:39 AM     14KB
10/24     11:39 PM     225KB
...
10/24     10:59 AM     8555KB
10/23     11:37 PM     1974KB
...
10/23     11:03 AM     604KB
10/23     12:42 AM     1460KB
10/22     09:42 PM     336KB
...
10/22     10:37 AM     16KB
10/22     12:44 AM     3233KB
10/21     11:44 PM     821KB
...
10/21     07:16 PM     140KB
10/20     11:52 PM     68KB
...
10/20     12:27 PM     227KB
10/19     10:22 PM     383KB
...
10/19     06:15 PM     2752KB
10/18     11:27 PM     786KB
...
10/18     12:12 PM     51KB
10/18     03:22 AM     18KB
10/18     02:22 AM     266KB
10/17     11:22 PM     40KB
...
10/17     07:07 AM     473KB
10/17     02:07 AM     18712KB
10/17     01:07 AM     31456KB
10/16     11:07 PM     34239KB
...
10/16     10:24 AM     24KB
10/15     05:52 PM     412KB
...
10/15     09:19 AM     11KB
10/15     03:11 AM     20KB
10/15     12:11 AM     41KB
10/15     12:11 AM     14KB
10/14     10:11 PM     52KB
...
10/14     08:22 AM     754KB
10/14     04:22 AM     42KB
10/12     10:18 PM     247KB
...
10/12     05:37 AM     25KB
10/12     02:37 AM     15KB

Important Information: There are delays in reporting and processing data records. It may take up to two to five days for airtime usage on the AT&T wireless network to show up in any Data "Used" category. Additional delays may occur due to technical difficulties. Further delays may apply to roaming usage, which is based on usage records received from other carriers. A delay of a minimum of two to ten days for roaming usage is usual and up to 60 days or longer is possible. During the time your invoice is being processed, you may not be able to view your usage or you may experience additional delays in reporting of usage. This usage information is only an estimate and, regardless of what is shown, your next invoice will be determined by the information contained in our billing system, not this usage information. Hawaii Text/Data Users: The time stamp for your unbilled data usage may be off by up to 4 hours.

For the period of 10-12 through 10-31 I totalled 375KB of usage that was reported during the night when I was asleep.  Since I don't turn my phone off, nor turning off the data services, it seems fairly obvious to me that this usage pattern that people are reporting isn't a network wide problem.

I will add one more note.  I have started using the "Awaken" app as my alarm clock.  With this usage, and my phone plugged in overnight, it does not go into sleep mode, and therefore it also does not use cellular data unless my home wifi is acting up (as is has been the last couple days) where I can't connect unless I fight my way to the router and reboot it.  I would guess that most of my middle of the night usage is actually push notifications that I receive.  Still it is only averaging out to about 125KB/week,  and even with those 3 huge downloads on the 16th/17th for almost 80MB,  I am still only using about 221MB so far this month...

[johninsj ACE - Professor]

From your post:

Important Information: There are delays in reporting and processing data records.

The time reported is NOT always the time the event was generated.

[GeekBoy]

---

johninsj wrote:

From your post:

Important Information: There are delays in reporting and processing data records.

The time reported is NOT always the time the event was generated.

---

Yes, I am fully aware of that, and that is why I left that comment on the end of my message.  I could easily have deleted it along with the couple dozen rows of data usage that weren't relevant, but since it was relevant, I left it.

[backpacker57]

Are you an AT&T employee?

[backpacker57]

Yeah REALLY.

Been there done that.

Apple iPhone users are using APP to track their monthly matched billing cycle data usage and AT&T is showing a HUGE disparity from the APP usage and from billed data usage by AT&T.

[backpacker57]

why limit to just iPhone users?

Because this thread concerns iPhone users--

Gotta beef?  Go start another thread

[backpacker57]

The "unlimited data plans" still in effect for now-- these users don't look at their data usage since it's unlimited. Maybe once the plans are changed (nothing is forever) they will get shell shocked.

GOOD 4 U for using DataMan--- note where the data usage is being consumed!  Where you at ALL those locations?

Some users reporting locations during night and they were NOT there but at home asleep--- could be SKYPE or other peering or could be Security Issue with AT&T or "other" anomaly ------

[GeekBoy]

One thing I have noticed is that the OLAM report for my "unbilled usage" shows about 289MB while I show about 185MB.  Additionally, the AT&T "myWireless" app shows the same usage amount at the OLAM site.  In looking at the detail for the "unbilled usage" on teh OLAM pages, I see that I have about 8 days of usage that was billed on my previous bill that are stil showing on the currently "unbilled usage".  I have not seen this before, and wonder if it is just a reporting error on site...  When I get some time, I will get the details together and call an AT&T support person to get more details as to why this is.

[GeekBoy]

---

backpacker57 wrote:

GOOD 4 U for using DataMan--- note where the data usage is being consumed!  Where you at ALL those locations?

---

For me, I have been within GPS accuracy for the locations where I was reported to have used the data (at the time of the reported usage even),  yes.  The map shows my usage in a fairly tight pattern between home, work and a few other places I tend to frequent.  There is one anomolous pin, but considering how the iPhone location services sometimes place me as far as 2 miles from my actual location (usually when cell tower tranagulation is uesd) that one odd pin, is within the margin of error.

[johninsj ACE - Professor]

---

backpacker57 wrote:

Yeah REALLY.

Been there done that.

Apple iPhone users are using APP to track their monthly matched billing cycle data usage and AT&T is showing a HUGE disparity from the APP usage and from billed data usage by AT&T.

---

I think you missed the word "some" in that paragraph. I actually have a very close match between the mywireless data and the built-in iPhone data counter. Go figure.

[GeekBoy]

---

GeekBoy wrote:

One thing I have noticed is that the OLAM report for my "unbilled usage" shows about 289MB while I show about 185MB.  Additionally, the AT&T "myWireless" app shows the same usage amount at the OLAM site.  In looking at the detail for the "unbilled usage" on the OLAM pages, I see that I have about 8 days of usage that was billed on my previous bill that are still showing on the currently "unbilled usage".  I have not seen this before, and wonder if it is just a reporting error on site...  When I get some time, I will get the details together and call an AT&T support person to get more details as to why this is.

---

I had a chance to dig into this in more detail.

On my October bill I was billed for usage from Sept 12-2010 through Oct-19-2010.  My OLAM "Data usage" report showed data usage from Oct-12-2010 through current.  I decided to research the "overlap" in more detail to find that none of the data usage in the overlap was duplicated.  Each was unique.  I was seeing usage on one bill for times like 8:22am & 9:22am while the other "bill" had usage for 8:37am & 8:52am on the same day.  The most obscure was when I saw usage reports for consecutive minutes one on each "bill".  While I don't understand why there would be usage from one minute not billed in October, and the usage from the next was billed, at least I wasn't double billed for the usage.  I also don't understand why there is usage from 1 week prior to the close of my billing cycle that was not included in that cycle while other usage from the day the cycle ended was included.

In the end the moral of the story is that any usage during the last week of the billing cycle may or may not be rolled over into the next billing cycle.  Knowing this I can now see why there might be times when the AT&T web site shows more data used than your iPhone if you reset your phone at the beginning of your billing cycle.  It is because some of the usage your phone already showed and was cleared by you is not finally showing on your bill.

[hallburns]

This is now the third month I've had to call ATT for an explanation for why my data usage report shows a near 100MB data usage event that took place last evening while my phone was on my kitchen table and I was downstairs doing laundry, according to the time stamp on my data report page at ATT's website.

Last month I was told by a rep that late night data loss was a "known issue," and he apparently even typed that into the notes for the phone call. This month, this morning actually, a different rep told me that the previous guy was not telling the truth, that there was no issue with the phone or their system.

He also told me that the time stamp that's paired with the data usage events don't mean anything. Which is contrary to what they told my wife last month when she called on my behalf.

I do not email photos or look at videos or download music or do any of the high usage bullet points they're obligated to warn you about. I bought the 200MB plan because I am old and have no friends and nothing to share and few interests   i'm the reason the plan exists, but they can't explain where my data is going, what form it's taking, or when it's happening.

So apparently they resort to making stuff up.

[archman1]

I'm having a similar issue with my wife's iphone 3G. I have gone a few rounds with ATT over unexplained huge data usages. My wife barely uses her phone and there were 3 days in a row with 65MB+ usage. Something is amiss. Needless to say, I have turned off cellular data until I can figure out a solution. ATT is not much help. It does seem like it has something to do with the phone hardware or software. I have a 3Gs and don't have a similar issue. I set my wife's phone up almost exactly as my own. There are only a few things different. One is email. Here is my theory after some trouble shooting and forum research. I will test this theory tonight when I have access to my wife's phone.

First piece of the puzzle? In my case I think the culprit is gmail (specifically IMAP). My wife has been getting numerous messages that she can't connect to gmail servers or that her username and password are incorrect. When I set it up initially, everything verified and checked out fine. It was working just fine for a couple weeks and then these error messages started popping up. I checked the settings, etc. and changed the server port # (google had two you could use). It started working again...then again with the error messages. Again a huge data usage. The ATT customer service manager said that the majority of the data was being sent and not received. Maybe the phone was continuously trying to contact the gmail server (I wouldn't think this would ever amount to 65MB+ but what do I know). Another piece? I think a lot of this huge data usage issue started happening when the iphone 4 came out with iOS 4.x. What changed in iOS 4.x?...the way you set up gmail IMAP on the iphone. In iOS 3.x and earlier, you had to add gmail IMAP accounts under the "other" button when setting it up. In iOS 4.x you select "gmail" and as long as you have IMAP enabled in your gmail account settings (accessed via your computer), it sets up most of the incoming and outgoing server info that you previously entered manually under iOS 3.x. See gmail support link below.

https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=77702

This still doesn't explain why my iphone isn't having the same problem as my wife's. My gmail IMAP was set up the same as her's under the "other" button and I didn't have any problems. I've changed it since then. It might have to do with me having a 3Gs vs my wife's 3G. I wonder how many people who have this huge data usage issue are running gmail IMAP on their phones and have it set up under "other". I will test the theory over the next couple days and report.

[JFizDaWiz]

if cellular data is off and it's not racking up data usage then you're using data and the system is probably correct.

if cellular data was off and you were still getting usage then I could see how it would be the phone/AT&T's fault

[DimentoGraven]

---

archman1 wrote:

...

This still doesn't explain why my iphone isn't having the same problem as my wife's. My gmail IMAP was set up the same as her's under the "other" button and I didn't have any problems. I've changed it since then. It might have to do with me having a 3Gs vs my wife's 3G. I wonder how many people who have this huge data usage issue are running gmail IMAP on their phones and have it set up under "other". I will test the theory over the next couple days and report.

---

Is it possible your wife's OS is more up to date than yours?  As I recall I started having problems with email and voice mail after a recent update, I was forced to re-setup the password for both to get them working.

Specifically for email, while I could RECEIVE email, it was OUTBOUND that was messed up and I had to reset everything (I use hotmail, so it wasn't that difficult).

If you're wife has any messages in her outbound folder while suffering under a misconfigured email setup, her phone is probably attempting to resend those emails and failing all day long.

[archman1]

It looks like gmail IMAP was the culprit for the huge data usage on my wife's iphone. After reconfiguring the gmail IMAP settings correctly for iOS 4.x, gmail has not had any error messages and I haven't had the huge data usage. I hope everything goes smoothly from here on out. If I start seeing gmail error messages again, I will be turning off cellular data with a quickness (took about a day to burn through 100MB when these error messages were happening). I wish ATT/Apple/Google were a bit more on top of these potential issues and could have suggested the top 5 causes of data spikes (After 2 calls to tech support and more than an hour on the phone, all I got was "close out of all safari windows". Maybe a better way of trouble shooting/tracking down the offending app. I know it's a complex issue and I as a consumer bear some of that responsibility, but since I didn't know gmail server errors could result in data spikes nor was I informed that I would need to change my gmail settings with the introduction of iOS 4.x, I think ATT/Apple/Google need to be more proactive in solving issues instead of pointing fingers. Maybe issues such as these are the reason Apple wanted unlimited data plans in the first place? Don't flame up, but it looks like some other company got proactive and did the leg work for their customers on at least one similar issue.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/01/windows-phone-7-phantom-data-leaker-unmasked-as-yahoo-mail-fi/

@Dimento Graven

My wife and I were on the same iOS version as far as I know (I update the phones at the same time). Since hers is a 3G (mine is a 3Gs), maybe the iOS code is different enough to be part of the problem (most likely not a hardware issue). My wife did not have anything in the outbound folder, but trying to continuously sync IMAP folders, data, etc. might have a similar result.

Anyway, I hope this issue is done for me and I hope the info in my posts is helpful to other frustrated people.

[medellin1982]

I just checked my text messaging usage and the following came up, my iPhone is connected to wifi about 90% of the time, at work and at home so there is no way I have used this data:

Could anyone tell me how much data is 342646KB?

02/01 11:26 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 342646KB

02/09 02:10 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 25613KB
02/08 07:00 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 283306KB
02/08 06:30 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 49490KB
02/07 11:59 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 16225KB
02/07 12:50 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 26190KB
02/06 11:37 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 2837KB
02/05 11:50 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 147685KB
02/04 10:35 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 30996KB
02/03 11:14 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 32586KB
02/03 04:16 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 10530KB
02/01 11:26 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 342646KB
01/31 10:26 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 766KB
01/30 04:51 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 4891KB
01/29 09:51 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 64008KB
01/29 04:18 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 13781KB
01/29 12:57 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 1523KB
01/28 10:59 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 13534KB
01/28 11:43 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 32947KB
01/27 11:28 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 25400KB
Total this page 1124954KB
TOTAL 1124954KB

[Planet-Ed ACE - Expert]

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medellin1982 wrote:

Could anyone tell me how much data is 342646KB?

---

A kilobyte (KB) is approximately 1024 bytes, a megabyte (MB) is approximately 1024 kilobytes, and a gigabyte (GB) is approximately 1024 megabytes.

So around ~ 334.6MB

[satchev]

---

medellin1982 wrote:

I just checked my text messaging usage and the following came up, my iPhone is connected to wifi about 90% of the time, at work and at home so there is no way I have used this data:

Could anyone tell me how much data is 342646KB?

02/01 11:26 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 342646KB

02/09 02:10 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 25613KB
02/08 07:00 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 283306KB
02/08 06:30 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 49490KB
02/07 11:59 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 16225KB
02/07 12:50 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 26190KB
02/06 11:37 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 2837KB
02/05 11:50 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 147685KB
02/04 10:35 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 30996KB
02/03 11:14 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 32586KB
02/03 04:16 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 10530KB
02/01 11:26 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 342646KB
01/31 10:26 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 766KB
01/30 04:51 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 4891KB
01/29 09:51 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 64008KB
01/29 04:18 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 13781KB
01/29 12:57 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 1523KB
01/28 10:59 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 13534KB
01/28 11:43 AM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 32947KB
01/27 11:28 PM phone Internet/MEdia Net Sent 25400KB
Total this page 1124954KB
TOTAL 1124954KB

---

Text messages do NOT utilize data.  What you are seeing is your data usage for things like email, web surfing, viewing videos or streaming audio just to name a few of the many possibilities.

[JFizDaWiz]

and again you are NEVER ALWAYS on wifi. once the current download finished and the screen is off you are back on the celluar network and after speaking with Apple they say it can take 5 seconds to 1 minute before the wifi connection comes back after you turn the screen back on. 

[Tartuffe]

I am having the same issue.  It's not a lot of data, but it is still data that I am not personally using.

Here are some of them:

02/16     04:56 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     258KB

02/15     03:17 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     53KB

02/14     02:24 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     30KB

02/12     02:46 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     55KB

This happens while I am asleep, but my phone isn't.  I keep it connected to WiFi.  I keep it unlocked and plugged in while I sleep, specifically to make sure WiFi stays connected.  I have cellular data off.  I have disabled diagnostics.  I have turned off all running apps before going to sleep.  It is still sending data.

[dwill05]

---

Tartuffe wrote:

I am having the same issue.  It's not a lot of data, but it is still data that I am not personally using.

Here are some of them:

02/16     04:56 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     258KB

02/15     03:17 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     53KB

02/14     02:24 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     30KB

02/12     02:46 AM     phone     Internet/MEdia Net     Sent     55KB

This happens while I am asleep, but my phone isn't.  I keep it connected to WiFi.  I keep it unlocked and plugged in while I sleep, specifically to make sure WiFi stays connected.  I have cellular data off.  I have disabled diagnostics.  I have turned off all running apps before going to sleep.  It is still sending data.

---

As has been posted many times here, data listings reported by AT&T in the middle of the night are usually a round up total of the day's usage.  The phone is not using that much data at that exact time, it used that much during the day and they just report the daily total at the time shown.

[johninsj ACE - Professor]

---

Tartuffe wrote:

This happens while I am asleep, but my phone isn't.  I keep it connected to WiFi.  I keep it unlocked and plugged in while I sleep, specifically to make sure WiFi stays connected.  I have cellular data off.  I have disabled diagnostics.  I have turned off all running apps before going to sleep.  It is still sending data.

---

If you have it on wifi and it's plugged in, than this is delayed data reporting, and nothing more. You're using the data - at some point in the past couple days, it's just AT&T's confusing accounting/reporting methodolgy.

Considering the sizes reported, that looks very much like email or web access/web services (stocks/weather/news headlines/twitter/IM/facebook notifications, etc). Even the most basic mobile web page with a handful of graphics is going to come in at 8-10KB, while a non-mobil-optimised page can be far more - 1.4MB just for opening either www.cnn.com (full site) vs m.cnn.com.

Look again at the mywireless page where you're seeing this data. Read the disclaimer at the bottom. "Important Information: There are delays in reporting and processing data records....."

They should put that on the TOP of the page, where people will see it, and not the bottom, where they don't.