5.1 Audio Fix Implementation – Your Feedback Needed

[Glynne]

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ERIC8585 wrote:

I live in the East San Francisco Bay Area.  Any ETA for that market?  On a separate note, is there a fix for the intermittent response from the DVR when issuing commands on the IR remote?  THe only fix I saw was turning off features on the TV and putting objects over the IR sensor on the DVR to reduce the interference.

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I could offer another possible solution to the IR sensor issue.  Could get an IR repeater that is designed to filter out these problems.  The only one I'm aware of that both filters out stray IR and works the RC-MM remotes (Uverse, some DirectTV) is from http://www.nilesaudio.com.  However I think they only deal with installers.  Hmmm, I think Smart Home carries them so maybe that is an option.  Never tried it so don't know for sure.

Glynne

[Glynne]

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RRK wrote:

I dont think this is the issue that you guys are talking about but is it related to the problem that causes me to run a separate optical cord from my dvr to my receiver?  The sd channels and music channels pass the audio straight through the hdmi to my tv and then optical to my receiver but the HD channels I have to use a optical switcher.

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I know this is not what you want to hear but using a TV as a A/V switcher usually does not work out well.  If I understand the way you have things wired correctly.  This is partly because HDMI audio and TOS-Link audio are different and the electronics in the TV would have to convert them.  Some do, some don't.  Having an A/V Receiver do the switching is preferable.  Sorry.

Glynne

[RRK_1]

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Glynne wrote:

I know this is not what you want to hear but using a TV as a A/V switcher usually does not work out well.  If I understand the way you have things wired correctly.  This is partly because HDMI audio and TOS-Link audio are different and the electronics in the TV would have to convert them.  Some do, some don't.  Having an A/V Receiver do the switching is preferable.  Sorry.

Glynne

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Yeh, after some research I will be investing in a new receiver as my next purchase.  Probably wont go all out.  Maybe the cheap Sony model or something more bargain like an Onkyo.  My TV and DVD are Samsung so maybe I will see if they have anything available that is reasonably priced.

[SomeJoe7777 ACE - Geek]

The 5.1 audio drops appear to be very nearly completely fixed as far as I can tell.

A nearly 2 hour capture of the digital audio stream no longer results in sync issues, so I can only assume that the framing errors are gone or nearly gone.  See this thread for details on how the capture was done, and the difference in audio sync from before the 5.1 fix and after.

I have only tested the 5.1 fix in this manner for one channel (TCM, Turner Classic Movies), but the fix seems to work perfectly.

Dolby Digital frames are 32 msec long, and I can begin to notice audio sync issues when the audio is out of sync by +/- 100 msec or greater.  Since I cannot see/hear any audio sync issues with this capture, I feel confident saying that over a nearly 2 hour period, 2 or fewer Dolby Digital frames were dropped.

[tholeebiking]

I live in San Jose, CA.  With 1456 (Cooking channel), I get random .5 second drops, but it is not as bad as previous to the current fix.  The time between drops is greater than before.  Before, I would get the drops randomly but sometimes, I would get the digital version of static noise.  In order to fix that I would have to change channels and change it back.  Must be a synchronization issue.

[RCSMG ACE - Master]

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tholeebiking wrote:

I live in San Jose, CA.  With 1456 (Cooking channel), I get random .5 second drops, but it is not as bad as previous to the current fix.  The time between drops is greater than before.  Before, I would get the drops randomly but sometimes, I would get the digital version of static noise.  In order to fix that I would have to change channels and change it back.  Must be a synchronization issue.

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And that is a very bad sound.  If speakers are up to high that digital noise can blow them quite easily.

[fbonilla_1]

I live in Miami, and just switched from Comcast to ATT.  Very happy with channel lineup, but the audio drops started from when the technician was still here.  Had to switch from digital to AV to avoid the audio issue.  Not an acceptable solution.  Audio drops and some freezes have me considering to switch back to Comcast despite their lmited line up. 

[ApexRon]

In reading some of the information posted here, it sounds like this 'fix' is with regard to audio drops only. Correct?

Let me summarize my situation. I have the same the same HDMI setup as I have had through a year with the cable companies DVR and a year with a TiVo and have never experienced the symptoms I am now experiencing with the U-Verse Cisco IPN4320.

Surround Sound issues:

1. Intermittent audio drops

2. Intermittent crackled or garbled sound

The issues are resolved by changing the DVR setting to Stereo which is not an acceptable fix.

I have contacted ATT U-Verse support and they have confirmed that a fix is in the works. I have been advised by ATT that the issues are associated with the buffers used for audio in the DVR. ATT also says no ETA on fix rollout. Having been in engineering for 40+ years, I offered my system to be used for field testing. Waiting ... just waiting

Let me know when this is rolled out to Apex, NC.

[hdtexas]

I've been watching ESPN HD for several hours today and I'm happy to report that there have been zero audio drop-outs.  I'm so glad that progress is being made on this issue! 

[dwieder]

I am still getting drops while watching the Notre Dame football game on NBC in Houston (1002).

[texasguy37 ACE - Champion]

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dwieder wrote:

I am still getting drops while watching the Notre Dame football game on NBC in Houston (1002).

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Are you receiving drops on other channels that are on the fixed list?

[Zeonis]

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tholeebiking wrote:

I live in San Jose, CA.  With 1456 (Cooking channel), I get random .5 second drops, but it is not as bad as previous to the current fix.  The time between drops is greater than before.  Before, I would get the drops randomly but sometimes, I would get the digital version of static noise.  In order to fix that I would have to change channels and change it back.  Must be a synchronization issue.

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Channel 1456 is not listed as having the fix applied so obviously you would continue to have the 5.1 audio drops. Please read about the channels with the fix applied here...

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Announcements/5-1-Audio-Fix-Implementation-Feedback-Needed/td-p/255891

[dwieder]

In Houston, would you expect drops on ABC on the local news, but not on national programming? I just heard some on the local news, but didn't hear any for the past hour while the national ABC was broadcasting a football game. This is channel 1013 (ABC) in Houston.

[Redwing55]

Watching 1602.  ESPN.  7:20 pm EDT.  Drops are pretty heavy.  They seamed gone earlier today.

I then watched the station a lot in the evening and NO drops.  When I was watching ti @7 or so, it was commentary.  Later I was watching the game.  Strange I'd say.

[mmillerr]

Not fixed in Canal Winchester, Ohio 43110.  I'm still getting the dropouts on the Science Channel HD and History HD.  Those are the two I really noticed last night.  I'll have to do some surfing to 'see' if I have them on the other 'fixed channels.

Mark

[ApexRon]

The audio drops and crackle in sound when in Surround Sound mode may or may not be related. However, I have the Cisco IPN4320 which I understand is Microsoft Windows CE based. Here are some technical excerpts from a Microsoft IPTV document. Draw your own conclusions:

Codec quality/bit rate. The Windows Media Audio and Video codecs provide high quality playback with high compression ratios. The codecs are also highly scalable to provide optimum audio and video quality at bit rates from 20 Kbps to 20 Mbps. Typically, bit rates for full-resolution, Windows Media-based SDTV content range from one to 1.5 Mbps; Windows Media-based HDTV (1080i) bit rates range from 7 to 8 Mbps.

5.1 and 7.1 audio. The Windows Media Audio 9 Professional codec provides discrete digital surround sound with 5.1 channels and above, for streaming or download-and-play, at bit rates as low as 128 kbps. This codec also supports full-resolution audio, with 24-bit sampling resolution and 96-kHz sampling rates.

On my IPN4320, the OS level is WinCE 5.0.1400... Microsoft current level is 6.0 release 3. So the question is, where is ATT U-Verse with regard to upgrading OS levels? Assuming the newer version would be a beneficial upgrade.

[gbh62]

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ApexRon wrote:

The audio drops and crackle in sound when in Surround Sound mode may or may not be related. However, I have the Cisco IPN4320 which I understand is Microsoft Windows CE based. Here are some technical excerpts from a Microsoft IPTV document. Draw your own conclusions:

Codec quality/bit rate. The Windows Media Audio and Video codecs provide high quality playback with high compression ratios. The codecs are also highly scalable to provide optimum audio and video quality at bit rates from 20 Kbps to 20 Mbps. Typically, bit rates for full-resolution, Windows Media-based SDTV content range from one to 1.5 Mbps; Windows Media-based HDTV (1080i) bit rates range from 7 to 8 Mbps.

5.1 and 7.1 audio. The Windows Media Audio 9 Professional codec provides discrete digital surround sound with 5.1 channels and above, for streaming or download-and-play, at bit rates as low as 128 kbps. This codec also supports full-resolution audio, with 24-bit sampling resolution and 96-kHz sampling rates.

On my IPN4320, the OS level is WinCE 5.0.1400... Microsoft current level is 6.0 release 3. So the question is, where is ATT U-Verse with regard to upgrading OS levels? Assuming the newer version would be a beneficial upgrade.

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As I pointed out (link below), CE5.0 has NO native support for AC3 (5.1) audio while 6.0 does.  This means ATT either purchased or internally developed the codec support for 5.1 audio. 

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Equipment/Audio-drop-outs-surround-5-1/m-p/239767#M44085

The OP (ATT employee) has asserted on this thread that the STB is not part of the problem.  Not sure whether I believe that, but that is the claim.  However, a supposedly reliable Tier 2 tech, Matt, asserted (link below) that the problem was in the STB, and MSFT related.

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Equipment/Audio-drop-outs-surround-5-1/m-p/187602#M35140

As to an "upgrade" to 6.0, that will not happen.  The cost to ATT from MSFT probably makes this prohibitive.

[EdDinIL]

I've been watching NHRA qualifying on ESPN2HD (1606) for the past 90 minutes and have not heard any drops.  If this is The Fix, then hooray for ATT!

Location - Chicago NW burbs

Setup - component video cable to the TV, optical cable from DVR to a Denon AVR-890 receiver

[cheer]

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gbh62 wrote:

As to an "upgrade" to 6.0, that will not happen.  The cost to ATT from MSFT probably makes this prohibitive.

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Doesn't really work like that.  AT&T licenses the Mediaroom platform as a whole -- OS, app, everything, along with any customization that they (AT&T) want.

Keep in mind that once Microsoft delivers an update, AT&T will have their internal Labs org perform extensive regression testing, etc.  And I can anticipate a common response to this: "If they do so much testing, why do we have so many issues?"

The answer is...proper, thorough regression testing can still only catch so much.  There are many, many variables involved in a complex setup like U-Verse. 

Anyway, AT&T's not going to release an update until it's been through their testing.  There's no doubt in my mind that with every major update, they catch boatloads of bugs.  (I have no first-hand knowledge of this, but I do have first-hand knowledge of performing similar testing on Cisco router code.  Cisco ostensibly tests their code a great deal before releasing it, but man oh man, we find piles of problems.)  So then the bug reports would go back to Microsoft; MS would have to then track down the causes, attempt to fix, do internal testing, then deliver the fix to AT&T, which would then do their testing again.  And so on.

This cycle can go on for a long, long time.  And it may seem like there's no point, since again, we encounter issues like the dolby drops, fast forwarding baseball games, etc.  But if the testing/QA process didn't happen as I describe, I am certain we'd have a bazillion more problems.

(Again, no first-hand knowledge.  But in testing Cisco hardware/software...man, some of the things Cisco puts out there make me shudder.)

[cheer]

Ach, so my original point was that if WinCE 6.0 is what the latest Mediaroom platform runs on, sooner or later it will end up on U-Verse.

[trparky]

I didn't even have my audio setup properly.  I had it set to Stereo mode.  A night and day difference between Stereo and Surround Sound on my system, sounds so much better.

[ApexRon]

Having been in the industry for many decades, I can state that you are correct but it gets deeper than that.

Cisco owns the package as a whole and Microsoft owns the OS. We are the customers of ATT who owns product delivery responsibility to we the customers.

For issues, the chain is as follows:

1. Customer reports to ATT

2. ATT has to confirm issue is an issue and if an issue outside of ATT realm of responsibility, involve Cisco to resolve

3. Cisco has to confirm issue is an issue and if an issue, determine if issue is within Cisco's realm of responsibilty to fix or involve the owner of the OS, Microsoft

4. Microsoft has to confirm issue is an issue and if the issue is within Microsoft's realm of responsibility to fix or involve the vendor for a particular hardware component (is the issue associated with the driver or a chip)

Now if a vendor of a particular hardware component releases a new driver, then the flow of evaluation goes the opposite direction.

How much time does it take to actually get something fixed? Well that is directly related to the severity of the issue (in this case probably how bad the issue is or how many customer it affects). I expect that the sound issue that EVERYONE is probably experiencing is one notch above the lowest severity since there is an available circumvention; just turn off Surround Sound. This is where everyone's cards and letters to ATT become important. If we had the email address for an executive of ATT's U-Verse so that everyone could send an email stressing the importance of resolving the sound issue because for probably most of us, ATT U-Verse is not the only choice we have and our other choices are able to deliver what they advertise, namely Surround Sound.

[darkenergy]

It's always been just audio. I've never had video glitches. I haven't had much time to test many channels over the past week. I will report back.

[EdDinIL]

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I've been watching NHRA qualifying on ESPN2HD (1606) for the past 90 minutes and have not heard any drops.  If this is The Fix, then hooray for ATT!

Location - Chicago NW burbs

Setup - component video cable to the TV, optical cable from DVR to a Denon AVR-890 receiver

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Continuing my motorsports viewing, I just watched the NASCAR Sprint Cup race on ESPNHD (1602).  I noticed one audio drop during the race.  That's way better than a dropout every couple of minutes.

[Glynne]

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ApexRon wrote:

Having been in the industry for many decades, I can state that you are correct but it gets deeper than that.

Cisco owns the package as a whole and Microsoft owns the OS. We are the customers of ATT who owns product delivery responsibility to we the customers.

For issues, the chain is as follows:

1. Customer reports to ATT

2. ATT has to confirm issue is an issue and if an issue outside of ATT realm of responsibility, involve Cisco to resolve

3. Cisco has to confirm issue is an issue and if an issue, determine if issue is within Cisco's realm of responsibilty to fix or involve the owner of the OS, Microsoft

4. Microsoft has to confirm issue is an issue and if the issue is within Microsoft's realm of responsibility to fix or involve the vendor for a particular hardware component (is the issue associated with the driver or a chip)

Now if a vendor of a particular hardware component releases a new driver, then the flow of evaluation goes the opposite direction.

How much time does it take to actually get something fixed? Well that is directly related to the severity of the issue (in this case probably how bad the issue is or how many customer it affects). I expect that the sound issue that EVERYONE is probably experiencing is one notch above the lowest severity since there is an available circumvention; just turn off Surround Sound. This is where everyone's cards and letters to ATT become important. If we had the email address for an executive of ATT's U-Verse so that everyone could send an email stressing the importance of resolving the sound issue because for probably most of us, ATT U-Verse is not the only choice we have and our other choices are able to deliver what they advertise, namely Surround Sound.

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Actually it's worse then that.  If a vendor somewhere along that chain decided it is their responsibility and for financial or legal (read, prevent law suit) reasons wants to pass the buck.  They'll play ping pong with the other vendors and never get the situation solved.  But do a great job attempting to kill it that way.  Multi vendor issues can be fun.  For those that define fun like beating your head against a wall.

Glynne

[Glynne]

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wd0423 wrote:

Thanks for the feedback Glynne. I need to verify but I believe we rolled out the fix for the black level issue with the last Client Release. When you get a chance, you might check that out if you haven't recently.

Thanks again.

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Ah, thanks.  I rewired for HDMI and have checked into the black level issue.  The HDNet test patterns I recorded recently look spot on.  Though some channels setup level look a bit high.  Guessing, around 10 IRE.  But that may be an issue with the channel and not AT&T.  I'll have to look some more.

Glynne

[ApexRon]

Agreed about the potential for multivendor hell.

How about where one of the vendors decides that the level of software/hardware that you built your business on is no longer current thus unsupported. Ouch!

We can only hope that ATT attorneys had some knowlege of the technical support pitfalls when building the vendor aggreements.

[BeeBeeSA ACE - Wizard]

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EdDinIL wrote:

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I've been watching NHRA qualifying on ESPN2HD (1606) for the past 90 minutes and have not heard any drops.  If this is The Fix, then hooray for ATT!

Location - Chicago NW burbs

Setup - component video cable to the TV, optical cable from DVR to a Denon AVR-890 receiver

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Continuing my motorsports viewing, I just watched the NASCAR Sprint Cup race on ESPNHD (1602).  I noticed one audio drop during the race.  That's way better than a dropout every couple of minutes.

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I also watched the race but don't have an AV system on the TV I was using.  The STB is set to stereo and I had one drop also.  I don't think it was an AT&T issue but rather an audio issue with ESPNHD.  When I heard the drop I thought of this thread since I never have audio issues on this STB/TV.

Conclusion:  Problem was not related to the 5.1 audio drop issue but rather an ESPNHD audio issue.

[Redwing55]

Ok, I'm watching 1602- ESPNHD   the VT BS football game.

Dropa are back.  started about 8:20 EDT on Labor day.  Pretty frequent too.  Odd, since they seamed to be gone. 

Midland, MICHIGAN.

[Hammon98]

Watching Animal Planet HD 1252 tonight, drops about 1-2x per hour.  St. Louis market.

Uverse box connects to Yamaha receiver RX-V465 via HDMI then to TV via HDMI.

Edit - Forgot to mention that there were no video disruptions, just audio.