Horrible U-Verse HD tv. [ Edited ]

[dhascall ACE - Master]

My biggest PQ issue (as I have stated before) is where there is some hatcheted pattern like a chain link fence, or curbs at auto race circuits where the colors alternate black and white.  Those patterns look like they are moving.  It does it on HD, SD and on every set that I own.  Straight lines often also will have a dashed look, like something at too low a resolution.

I have fast forwarded through many auto races instead of watching it at normal speed because of this.  Don't know why it does that or, what this issue is called but it is almost like looking at germs or amoebas in a microscope.  AND after that scene goes away, that part that had the movement, will still "move" for a few seconds, afterwards.

[mibrnsurg ACE - Master]

Feel bad for ya' Dave as I know you enjoy Nascar races even more than I do and that's alot.  Luckily only problem I see here was on TNT's coverage, the race track looked like a black smear like football grass can be (TNT 1080i, not surprised).

Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-866-465-1496 for direct TS to avoid Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

[michail77]

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dhascall wrote:

My biggest PQ issue (as I have stated before) is where there is some hatcheted pattern like a chain link fence, or curbs at auto race circuits where the colors alternate black and white.  Those patterns look like they are moving.  It does it on HD, SD and on every set that I own.  Straight lines often also will have a dashed look, like something at too low a resolution.

I have fast forwarded through many auto races instead of watching it at normal speed because of this.  Don't know why it does that or, what this issue is called but it is almost like looking at germs or amoebas in a microscope.  AND after that scene goes away, that part that had the movement, will still "move" for a few seconds, afterwards.

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I've seen that movement when outputting an HD channel to SD or SD Wide.  Luckily I haven't noticed it otherwise.

[SomeJoe7777 ACE - Expert]

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dhascall wrote:

My biggest PQ issue (as I have stated before) is where there is some hatcheted pattern like a chain link fence, or curbs at auto race circuits where the colors alternate black and white.  Those patterns look like they are moving.  It does it on HD, SD and on every set that I own.  Straight lines often also will have a dashed look, like something at too low a resolution.

---

There are two possible different issues there:

1. H.264 (and MPEG-2) use motion estimation to improve compression.  They do this by finding matching parts of the picture in subsequent frames.  e.g. If an object in frame 1 is also found in frame 2 but has simply moved, instead of compressing the image of the object again, the encoder will insert a back-reference to the object from frame 1, and a coordinate offset, in essence, repeating the same image that was in frame 1.  If the object has also changed slightly, such as gotten larger or smaller from zoom or changed brightness or color due to lighting, then a small amount of extra data is added to describe the change.

This algorithm fails spectacularly on objects that have a small repeating pattern, like chain-link fences, mini-blinds, patterned clothing, etc.  The algorithm incorrectly estimates the amount of movement because it can't match the object's position correctly, and therefore on playback the object appears to jump or exhibits "tearing" where there is a vertical or horizontal discontinuity.

2. Stair-stepped diagonal lines almost always indicate a deinterlacing or resize issue.  This is generally the result of a low-quality scaler/deinterlacer chip at work.  The one in the U-Verse STB is a pretty good one, so this may be the result of your TV doing some type of resize.  Some TV's ever-so-slightly resize the picture to simulate overscan instead of scanning at native resolution, this might be adjustable via a menu selection.

[chrisw]

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michail77 wrote:

Every time I see the a show on the Science Channel or Discovery channel I cringe every time there is a camera cut since it often results in a pixel explosion.  Without me saying anything my girlfriend was complaining about that on Dirty Jobs (technology problems are always my fault ).  I then recorded the same showing on DirecTV and U-verse for testing and  it wasn't doing it on DTV.

I did another DTV/U-verse comparison to the opening of The Daily Show.  On DirecTV the fast moving curves of the intro graphics were smooth and sharp when paused.  On U-verse they were jagged, fuzzy and had noticeable artifacts when paused.  When the motion in the video settled down they became indistinguishable. 

On CNN HLN every time a graphic cuts out quickly it's often replaced with pixels where the graphic had just vanished from.  

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Those are one of my biggest issues with the HD artifacts that U-Verse creates. I think it's a little ridiculous how many shows I've seen, where the scene just changes and the pixels go crazy. This happens on HBO, Showtime, and many other channels that I've tested. Graphics that float by the screen from sports, news, and talk shows become bursts of artifact pixelation. Watch any movie with a corn field, and you'll see that the whole field is one big mess as well. Hook the box up to a small CRT. Which feed looks better? Of course, the SD field does, because the pixelation doesn't occur most of the time. All this talk makes me a little more angry about the so called $10 HD Technology Fee.

mibrnsurg: I have to admit, my 42" 5 year old Samsung Plasma that's impossible to calibrate, does have a better job at hiding the pixelation artifacts than my 3 month old 32" Samsung LCD.

[michail77]

I'm not trying to make anyone angry.  

I'm trying to just get used to it myself but it can be unsettling.  Sometimes I think the PQ looks great and I feel I'm being unreasonable.  Then the problem starts back up just when I was thinking it was me.

[chrisw]

You can get used to it. I did for a while, until I went to a friend's house with a different service provider and I felt that I needed to get an OTA antenna. Here's the solution: Look away from the TVs outside of your own home unless you can confirm that they also have U-Verse.

[mibrnsurg ACE - Master]

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michail77 wrote:

I'm not trying to make anyone angry.  

I'm trying to just get used to it myself but it can be unsettling.  Sometimes I think the PQ looks great and I feel I'm being unreasonable.  Then the problem starts back up just when I was thinking it was me.

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Don't think anyone's getting angry, but back on the scene change pixelization, every time I watch something on Spike HD 1145, every time they go to commercial break, I do see a pixel shiver.  The whole scene just pixelates (have seen this at times on FSDet on Pistons and Red Wings broadcasts, a pixel shiver during action). 

Chris

---

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-866-465-1496 for direct TS to avoid Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

[msncookie]

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mibrnsurg wrote:

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michail77 wrote:

I'm not trying to make anyone angry.  

I'm trying to just get used to it myself but it can be unsettling.  Sometimes I think the PQ looks great and I feel I'm being unreasonable.  Then the problem starts back up just when I was thinking it was me.

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Don't think anyone's getting angry, but back on the scene change pixelization, every time I watch something on Spike HD 1145, every time they go to commercial break, I do see a pixel shiver.  The whole scene just pixelates (have seen this at times on FSDet on Pistons and Red Wings broadcasts, a pixel shiver during action). 

Chris

---

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-866-465-1496 for direct TS to avoid Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

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Chris, you previously said you didn't have the pixel blur issue on Red Wings Hockey (on your plasma), but then you just said you're seeing it.  So are there certain channels/broadcasts you're not seeing this problem, where there is lots of motion or scene changes?

Just trying to get clarification, but if motion/rapid scene changes causing pixelation is due to the compression algorithm (as SomeJoe explained to excellent detail), then I would expect this to occur on all channels.

[mibrnsurg ACE - Master]

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msncookie wrote:

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mibrnsurg wrote:

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michail77 wrote:

I'm not trying to make anyone angry.  

I'm trying to just get used to it myself but it can be unsettling.  Sometimes I think the PQ looks great and I feel I'm being unreasonable.  Then the problem starts back up just when I was thinking it was me.

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Don't think anyone's getting angry, but back on the scene change pixelization, every time I watch something on Spike HD 1145, every time they go to commercial break, I do see a pixel shiver.  The whole scene just pixelates (have seen this at times on FSDet on Pistons and Red Wings broadcasts, a pixel shiver during action). 

Chris

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Chris, you previously said you didn't have the pixel blur issue on Red Wings Hockey (on your plasma), but then you just said you're seeing it.  So are there certain channels/broadcasts you're not seeing this problem, where there is lots of motion or scene changes?

Just trying to get clarification, but if motion/rapid scene changes causing pixelation is due to the compression algorithm (as SomeJoe explained to excellent detail), then I would expect this to occur on all channels.

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The pixel shivers (not at scene changes, but during action up/down the rink/court, about 1 second long) were on FSDetroit during 1 week in 2009, they are not current now.  The Spike HD problem as stated above does that only when going to commercial breaks, not on scene changes.

Edit: Have seen these pixel shivers very rarely on a number of channels since that week in 2009.

Chris

---

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-866-465-1496 for direct TS to avoid Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

[ram1220]

 I saw the "pixel bursts" during scene changes again last night on Discovery HD. I was watching Dirty Jobs. It wasn't as bad as the past few weeks but it was still there and was very annoying.

 bob

[dhascall ACE - Master]

Another PQ oddity:

I do have one HD set, out of 3 but we watch almost all programming on the SD channel.  Yes I know that it backwards (bass ackwards) but that is how we roll.  At any rate, regardless of the set, in some commercials, maybe when they change to a slide with a phone number or some scene changes in a program,  it will jump from full screen to letter box until the scene changes or another commercial comes on.  Does this on all TV's.  Why?

[dhascall ACE - Master]

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SomeJoe7777 wrote:

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dhascall wrote:

My biggest PQ issue (as I have stated before) is where there is some hatcheted pattern like a chain link fence, or curbs at auto race circuits where the colors alternate black and white.  Those patterns look like they are moving.  It does it on HD, SD and on every set that I own.  Straight lines often also will have a dashed look, like something at too low a resolution.

---

There are two possible different issues there:

1. H.264 (and MPEG-2) use motion estimation to improve compression.  They do this by finding matching parts of the picture in subsequent frames.  e.g. If an object in frame 1 is also found in frame 2 but has simply moved, instead of compressing the image of the object again, the encoder will insert a back-reference to the object from frame 1, and a coordinate offset, in essence, repeating the same image that was in frame 1.  If the object has also changed slightly, such as gotten larger or smaller from zoom or changed brightness or color due to lighting, then a small amount of extra data is added to describe the change.

This algorithm fails spectacularly on objects that have a small repeating pattern, like chain-link fences, mini-blinds, patterned clothing, etc.  The algorithm incorrectly estimates the amount of movement because it can't match the object's position correctly, and therefore on playback the object appears to jump or exhibits "tearing" where there is a vertical or horizontal discontinuity.

2. Stair-stepped diagonal lines almost always indicate a deinterlacing or resize issue.  This is generally the result of a low-quality scaler/deinterlacer chip at work.  The one in the U-Verse STB is a pretty good one, so this may be the result of your TV doing some type of resize.  Some TV's ever-so-slightly resize the picture to simulate overscan instead of scanning at native resolution, this might be adjustable via a menu selection.

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Thanks Joe.  As always.   Notice it on all TV's.  "Bad Mike" said that my TV's are not designed to work with AT&T's digital signal.  None of my TV's are good enough?  LOL.

[Tequila Killer]

I also see the compression artifacts during scene changes, fast motion or complex scenes with a lot of detail.  These issues are present on almost every channel I've watched.  However, news channels look great since there is very little changing on screen.  I switched from Crime Warner about a month ago and I noticed these issues on the first day.  I'm sticking with Uverse, for now, because the interface and DVR are way ahead of cable and my southern view is completely blocked with trees.

If AT&T could add another meg to the bitrate, that would help clean up the PQ.

[kg_1230]

I agree with miketrin, I just change from Charter HD cable which had 1080 and now I have poor 720 HD with ATT u-Verse. I had a ATT Salesman come to my home and told me that standard TV was broad casted in 720 and HD channels were all 1080. Well I'm paying for HD but only get 720. My picture is poor. I think I will swap back to cable.

[kg_1230]

sorry but you are wrong. I just swapped from Charter HD cable to U-Verse HD and I only get 720 compared to Charter 1080 no comparison in picture quality U-Verse is poor. I will be calling ATT in the morning to either get my HD corrected to 1080 as sold by thier salemans to have them come out and disconnect it.

[gregzoll_1]

You can not have ATT correct to 1080i, due to you yourself have to set the box. Better to keep at 720p, because the picture will be better overall.

[gregzoll_1]

There is really no difference in watching 1080i or 720p, due to majority of the sets will downscale to 720p, regardless if you choose 1080i or 720p. Now if the set has the capability of doing 1080p/24 with blu-ray, then yes it will keep the picture at 1080p/24.