The Blackout Sheriff

[cliffjg]

I am starting this thread to collect (hopefully) observations and issues related to live sports blackouts on UVerse.  I have found with other providers (not UVerse, so far) that they often implement reflex reaction blackouts of events which should not be blacked out, usually because they really do not understand the intricacies of the particular blackout rule they think they are following.

My first example.  Last night, UVerse blacked out the Clemson/Va Tech COLLEGE basketball game on the YES Network from 9 to 11 PM here in SE Connecticut (zip 06385).  First of all, I am unaware of ANY college basketball blackout rule, period.  Secondly, what was the blackout protecting?  The game was not offered on any other local regional sports network closer to me.  Were they afraid that showing the game would dissuade me from getting into my car and driving 600 miles to see the game in person?

Was it on ESPN Game Plan?  I was not aware that ESPN had exclusivity, if that in fact was the reason.

I have also asked ATT to research why UVerse is blacking out Nets games on the YES Network to my zip code.

Is it possible that ATT's deal with YES only allows it to broadcast certain programming?

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

I don't know about the Clemson/Va Tech game, but games that are available on ESPN Full Court in your market, would be blacked out on the RSN's.  If ESPN makes the game available for a fee in your market, why would they also make it available at no cost on the RSN?

[cliffjg]

Ever since ESPN began its pay-to-watch Game Plan offerings, the broadcasts have not had exclusivity, to my knowledge.  I have routinely watched both basketball and football games on broadcast stations and RSNs which were simultaneously offered on ESPN Game Plan.  And these were not local games.  Frankly, I don't think the NCAA will let them black out other broadcasts. 

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

ESPN Game Plan games are regional not national.  In one market a game may only be available to that market on ESPN Game Plan while in another market, the same game will be available on a local or regional channel.  How you can watch the games depends on the market where you are located.

Also, college game blackouts are not controlled by the NCAA.  Any blackouts are determined by the conferences, schools and the broadcast networks.

[oufanindallas]

AT&T does not set the blackout policy, they only abide by it. 

[cliffjg]

OUfanindallas --

I know ATT does not set the policies.  The point of the thread is that ATT may be "over complying", and blacking out stuff it does not have to black out.  That is what I am trying to test in starting this thread.

[oufanindallas]

To answer you question about the game the other day, ESPN had exclusivity for the game. Here is a list of games that are strictly on Full Court.

[That Don Guy]

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cliffjg wrote:

Frankly, I don't think the NCAA will let them black out other broadcasts. 

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I'm fairly certain that TV rights to non-tournament games are not the NCAA's call.  (The NCAA used to have sole TV control over all football games played by its member schools until about 30 years ago, when the courts ruled that it was illegal.)  The NCAA does control TV rights to its tournaments; this is one of the big reasons there's no NCAA top-level football tournament - the schools want control of the TV money.

If a school or conference wants to cut a TV deal that includes blackout rules, I'm pretty sure they can.  In fact, doesn't the new Pac-12 Network deal include a condition that games on the six "regional" channels (Washington, Oregon, Northern California,  Southern California, Arizona, Rockies) can only be broadcast in those particular areas?

[oufanindallas]

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That Don Guy wrote:

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cliffjg wrote:

Frankly, I don't think the NCAA will let them black out other broadcasts. 

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I'm fairly certain that TV rights to non-tournament games are not the NCAA's call.  (The NCAA used to have sole TV control over all football games played by its member schools until about 30 years ago, when the courts ruled that it was illegal.)  The NCAA does control TV rights to its tournaments; this is one of the big reasons there's no NCAA top-level football tournament - the schools want control of the TV money.

If a school or conference wants to cut a TV deal that includes blackout rules, I'm pretty sure they can.  In fact, doesn't the new Pac-12 Network deal include a condition that games on the six "regional" channels (Washington, Oregon, Northern California,  Southern California, Arizona, Rockies) can only be broadcast in those particular areas?

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Many of the confernce tournements are going to be shown only on ESPN full court for the non-local regions.  The link I provided in my previous post shows which games will be blacked out with maps that will have local regional non-ESPN coverage.

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

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oufanindallas wrote:

To answer you question about the game the other day, ESPN had exclusivity for the game. Here is a list of games that are strictly on Full Court.

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Thanks for posting that!  The map for the Clemson/Va Tech games shows that those in the blue area can only watch the game on ESPN Full Court.  Those in the black area can watch the game on local or regional TV.  Connecticut is in the blue area, thus the game could only be viewed by ESPN Full Court subscribers in Connecticut.

http://assets.espn.go.com/fullcourt/images/2011/blackout/415015.jpg

[cliffjg]

I respectfully disagree and I think this is precisely what I am trying to tell you guys.

The map shows where ESPN is blacked out in favor of local broadcasters.  You are ASSUMING that ESPN has exclusivity in the rest of the country (blue areas of the maps).  That is not the case, as far as I have been able to determine.  If you are right that ESPN has exclusivity rights except in the black areas on the map, why would the YES Network (a regional sports station located in NYC) even schedule a basketball game between VA Tech and Clemson that NO ONE could ever watch on their channel since ESPN has it on Full Court?

This is the basic misunderstanding I am talking about.  ATT blacked this game out last night because it is "over-complying"  with the rules.  I would like to find out who is making the blackout decisions at ATT and their rationale for doing so.  I think the mindset is "when in doubt, black it out".

[cliffjg]

I'm watching the Atlantic Sun semi-final right now on channel 1722 which according to you guys is supposed to be exclusively on ESPN Full Court.

[oufanindallas]

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cliffjg wrote:

I respectfully disagree and I think this is precisely what I am trying to tell you guys.

The map shows where ESPN is blacked out in favor of local broadcasters.  You are ASSUMING that ESPN has exclusivity in the rest of the country (blue areas of the maps).  That is not the case, as far as I have been able to determine.  If you are right that ESPN has exclusivity rights except in the black areas on the map, why would the YES Network (a regional sports station located in NYC) even schedule a basketball game between VA Tech and Clemson that NO ONE could ever watch on their channel since ESPN has it on Full Court?

This is the basic misunderstanding I am talking about.  ATT blacked this game out last night because it is "over-complying"  with the rules.  I would like to find out who is making the blackout decisions at ATT and their rationale for doing so.  I think the mindset is "when in doubt, black it out".

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Only the area's in the black would be recieving the game via local RSN. all other parts of the country would be blacked out and would require ESPN full court.

AT&T did not black out the game, YES would have blacked it out.

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

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cliffjg wrote:

I'm watching the Atlantic Sun semi-final right now on channel 1722 which according to you guys is supposed to be exclusively on ESPN Full Court.

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What I see right now on channel 1722 is the Women's ACC Quarterfinal #3 between Miami and Wake Forest (5:00 pm - 7:00 pm CT).  I don't see this games listed on the ESPN Full Court schedule.

[cliffjg]

You are right.  My bad...I misidentified the game.  Sorry.

[cliffjg]

Someone at ATT named Tammie is researching the answer to my question as to why Nets games are blacked out on UVerse when they are available on the local cable carrier.  Talked to her Thursday -- no answer yet.

The bottom line is that my area (06385) is getting the Rangers and Knicks on MSG, but someone (UVerse or the content supplier) is blacking out the Nets, which makes no sense.  Furthermore, Sunday afternoon the Devils-Islanders NHL game on MSG was blacked out here.  How can the same channel black out one New York hockey team but not the other? 

I have also written to YES network to find out whether they are blacking the Nets out on UVerse in this area.

[cliffjg]

So, if anyone out there is interested, I just spoke to the YES Network and received a great deal of additional info about the blackout policies in this area, and , by extension, elsewhere.

First of all, the post from someone a while back about who does the blacking out was incorrect.  ATT (or the local cable operator) does the actual blacking out.  They get instructions from the originator of the program, but they actually flip the switch or pull the plug or whatever to stop the program from showing up on the designated channel.  This explains why my local cable operator was showing the Nets games and UVerse is not.  They both get the program from the upstream source, but ATT is blacking it out downstream and Metrocast was not.  They are still looking in to why one blacks it out and the other does not.

Second, my zip code, 06385, according to NBA documentation in YES's possession and the person at YES I talked to, is not assigned as the home territory of ANY NBA team -- not the Celtics, not the Knicks, and not the Nets.  So there really is not a "home" team designated by the league assigned to this area.  To me, I would argue that this means any broadcast of the NBA from any origin should be OK to show in this area -- it does not impinge upon the NBA's rules since we are not assigned to anyone.

Third, the YES representative had no idea why ATT blacked out the Va Tech-Clemson game the other night; ESPN Game Plan does not trump other broadcasts and ATT should not have blacked that out on that basis.  The only areas for that blackout would have been in the immediate vicinity of the two schools, in Virginia and Carolina.  Game Plan is not designed or intended to have exclusivity; its purpose is to offer a slate of games to areas which would not otherwise be getting them from another source.

So, to get back to the original point of this thread, people who are upset about a particular blackout (and who care enough not to just change the channel and watch something else, which I admit is what most people will do) need to dig into the details of a particular blackout rule and not just blindly accept that the provider is following the rules correctly.  I continue to think a lot of us are missing out on content we should be getting.

I was told that ATT, the NBA, and YES are all in discussions now about these blackouts.  I have been told I will be hearing from ATT as it continues to investigate this issue for us.

[oufanindallas]

Using your zip code and this site, it looks like you are supposed to get the Celtics CSNE, NHL Rangers MSG, NHL Bruins and MLB Red Sox NESN, MLB Mets SNNY and MLB Yankess on YES.

[cliffjg]

Last night the Knicks and Rangers were both playing at the same time.  MSG (1708) prominently and repeatedly said that the Knicks were on the main channel and the Rangers were on MSG + (Channel 1709).  This past week when the same situation applied, UVerse showed the Rangers on MSG +.  Last night, no Rangers.  Nothing was broadcast on 1709 all night.

Still waiting for ATT to get back to me with an explanation for this.

[cliffjg]

I'm back expressing concern about excessive blackouts.  Why did I (in SE Connecticut) just receive a "This game is blacked out in your viewing area" message on Fox Sports Detroit for the show "Tigers Weekly"? (Sunday 4.29 Noon - 12:30) What geographic exclusivity applies to that show?  I have noticed that this happens with a few non-live RSN offerings and I do not understand it.  This is not a live event, nor is it a replay of a live event.

[bugmenot121]

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cliffjg wrote:

Second, my zip code, 06385, according to NBA documentation in YES's possession and the person at YES I talked to, is not assigned as the home territory of ANY NBA team -- not the Celtics, not the Knicks, and not the Nets.  So there really is not a "home" team designated by the league assigned to this area.  To me, I would argue that this means any broadcast of the NBA from any origin should be OK to show in this area -- it does not impinge upon the NBA's rules since we are not assigned to anyone.

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Not quite. As I understand the above sentence, someone in a part of the country far from any NBA team (say, Montana) could then subscribe to their "Sports Tier" and then get EVERY NBA game without need to purchase NBA League Pass.

[mibrnsurg ACE - Master]

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cliffjg wrote:

I'm back expressing concern about excessive blackouts.  Why did I (in SE Connecticut) just receive a "This game is blacked out in your viewing area" message on Fox Sports Detroit for the show "Tigers Weekly"? (Sunday 4.29 Noon - 12:30) What geographic exclusivity applies to that show?  I have noticed that this happens with a few non-live RSN offerings and I do not understand it.  This is not a live event, nor is it a replay of a live event.

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Very possibly the Tigers have rated it as part of live Tiger broadcasts (many times before a Tigers pre-game), since it is exclusively about the Detroit Tigers.

Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
Need Help? 1-800-288-2020, After he gets acct info, press # a bunch of times, get a menu from Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

[bugmenot121]

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mibrnsurg wrote:

Very possibly the Tigers have rated it as part of live Tiger broadcasts (many times before a Tigers pre-game), since it is exclusively about the Detroit Tigers.

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They shouldn't. Usually, pregame shows are NOT blacked out...or are MLB pregames different?

The way to test is to sign up for the HD Premium package. If all out-of-market MLB pregame shows are blacked out, then it's obviously league policy. If one MLB pregame show is blacked out, it's an error.

Usually the coaches shows (and similar) should not be blacked out to out-of-market viewers.

[cliffjg]

I subscribe to the HD Sports Tier, and the out-of-market MLB pre-game shows are generally (but not invariably) not blacked out .  This Tiger show was NOT a pre-game show, it is a weekly magazine show covering Tigers topics.  It should not have been blacked out.  I suppose it is possible that the schedule was wrong and the RSN was showing a replay of a Tigers game instead during the time period, but I doubt it.  The inconsistency of the black outs is frustrating.  Can't seem to figure out the rules, wich makes me think there aren't any.

For example, why do I get regular season Knick and Ranger games without a blackout, but not Nets, Devils, or Islander games coming from the same city?

[bugmenot121]

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cliffjg wrote:

I subscribe to the HD Sports Tier, and the out-of-market MLB pre-game shows are generally (but not invariably) not blacked out .  This Tiger show was NOT a pre-game show, it is a weekly magazine show covering Tigers topics.  It should not have been blacked out.  I suppose it is possible that the schedule was wrong and the RSN was showing a replay of a Tigers game instead during the time period, but I doubt it.  The inconsistency of the black outs is frustrating.  Can't seem to figure out the rules, wich makes me think there aren't any.

For example, why do I get regular season Knick and Ranger games without a blackout, but not Nets, Devils, or Islander games coming from the same city?

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I completely agree. I am familiar with such magazine shows, and you're right. They should not be blacked out. If the RSN was showing a Tigers game (either re-scheduled, replay, or such), you would have seen a standard "blackout" screen

Keep in mind that I don't know the Tigers' schedule for that day, but my only guess was that there was a game that was either re-scheduled, delayed due to weather, or extra innings. Obviously, the guide would not have had time to update. In such case, it would have said "Tigers Weekly" while showing a blackout screen.

That's just my random guess.

As far as that NY-area team situation goes, if the zipcode locator says "You are due to get games from such-and-such teams", and you don't, you're certainly not the only one in that area. My only theory is that there's so many teams and so many zip codes in that area from Boston to North Jersey that whoever sets such blackout screens is bewildered by the number of teams and has no idea what's going on.

I know it's incredibly frustrating, to say the least, and all I can do is offer apologies and my wishes that such things get fixed soon.

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

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bugmenot121 wrote:

They shouldn't. Usually, pregame shows are NOT blacked out...or are MLB pregames different?

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Some are and some are not.  It's up to the discretion of the team.  I believe that Tigers have elected to have those shows blacked out outside of their territory.

[cliffjg]

Based on my experience, which includes the fact that my local cable company pre-UVerse did not black out the Nets NBA games in my area and UVerse does (see earlier posts in this thread), I believe there are really two levels of decision-making before the game or whatever goes on the air.  There are the league imposed blackout rules which ATT always uses as the rationale when they black something out, and then there are carrier/broadcaster or carrier/league negotiations which ATT never tells us about unless asked.  So, even though, for example, my area could get the Nets games under the league rules, ATT has not negotiated for the right to show those games or chose not to pay the price, so I do not get them.

ATT"s first answer always is -- your zip code does not allow us to show the game to you -- check our ATT created website to see whether you get the games in your area.  If you take it a step further and contact the league or the carrier (such as MSG Network or YES Network), they say "Gee, we don't know why you aren't getting the game."  I had this exact experience with YES regarding the Nets games this season.  I spoke to a VP at YES who told me my zip code was not restricted from getting the Nets under league rules.  I believe it is because ATT chooses as a marketing decision not to tell us they decided not to pay for a particular product.

I do not have a problem with a private company deciding what and what not to show based on its own economic analysis.  I just wish ATT would be up front about it and not mislead its customers who pay for the extra services.

I'm sure Texas Guy will tell me why I am wrong about this.

[texasguy37 ACE - Expert]

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cliffjg wrote:

I'm sure Texas Guy will tell me why I am wrong about this.

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The only thing that I will tell you is that you have options.  If you are not  pleased with the service provided by you current TV provider, you have the option of switching to a provider who you feel will better meet your needs. Continuing to express your viewpoints to other customers, who have no control over black out decisions, is not a very productive use of your time.

[Ish Kabibble]

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texasguy37 wrote:

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cliffjg wrote:

I'm sure Texas Guy will tell me why I am wrong about this.

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The only thing that I will tell you is that you have options.  If you are not  pleased with the service provided by you current TV provider, you have the option of switching to a provider who you feel will better meet your needs. Continuing to express your viewpoints to other customers, who have no control over black out decisions, is not a very productive use of your time.

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I would offer the same advice except for one thing. Not everyone has options. Some people like myself signed contracts for their service. How would you like to sign up for for the U450 package for a year because you like movies and hockey only to have them pull the plug on NHL network. You could still change but that early termination fee is a tough pill to swallow.

[cliffjg]

ATT, as you well know, Texas Guy, monitors these threads carefully, so this is not just for the benefit of other customers.  As a matter of fact,  ATT has been quite responsive to these posts; I regularly receiver private messages from ATT moderators attempting to address my concerns.  I just think they have been less than forthright in their responses on the subject of blackouts.  Also, I happen to believe, perhaps naively, that a groundswell one way or the other by UVerse customers might have some impact on future decisions.