What is best setup for a new Uverse customer?

JFRAN_1 · ‎01-16-2009

My dad is getting Uverse installed next week. He bought a 1080p 55" LED Samsung TV. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being an expert, I am probably a 7.5 regarding audio/video technology.

Purchased:

Samsung LED 55" 1080p

Sony Blu-Ray Player

Yamaha 500W 5.1 Channel Home Theatre System

Just wanted to confirm that the setup I am going to use to hook up his system makes sense:

HDMI from STB to Yamaha Receiver

HDMI from Blu-Ray to Yamaha Receiver

2 HDMIs from Yamaha Receiver to Samsung TV (one for Blu Ray and one for Uverse TV)

Would I need two Optical Audio cables also (one from Blu ray to Receiver and one from STB to Receiver) for 5.1 or does HDMI work?

What is everyone's thought on HDMI cables? If I truly need FOUR HDMI cables, that could be quite expensive. Does more $$$ always indicate a better cable or is most of it marketing hype? I hate to get cheap on cables after spending so much on the equipment itself.

Any special considerations when hooking this system up I should be aware of regarding menu options, etc? I personally have Uverse, but just run the HDMI directly from STB to my TV as I dont have surround sound hooked up so am not working through a receiver.

Thanks for the input.

-JF

SomeJoe7777 · ‎01-30-2008

A few things for you:

1. U-Verse's implementation of HDMI can result in incorrect black levels unless your equipment can be adjusted to compensate. Please see this post for an explanation of the problem and the correct calibration procedure or adjustment. For this reason, I recommend component cables (3x RCA plugs colored red-green-blue, labeled Y-Pb-Pr).

I know many people thumb their nose at component, because it's analog and not digital, but there are many reasons I prefer component for U-Verse. First, the aforementioned incorrect black level problem with U-Verse's HDMI is eliminated. Second, U-Verse has some HD compression issues. Because component connections are analog, they introduce an almost imperceptible smoothing of the video which can soften those compression artifacts.

With the component connections, you will need a separate audio connection for U-Verse. The optical digital connection on the U-Verse box is available, but some people have problems with audio dropouts on that connection. This is dependent on what brand and model of AV receiver you have. If you get the dropouts, there is no recourse except to turn off surround sound in the U-Verse box settings, or to switch to analog RCA L/R audio connections. HDMI connections suffer from the dropouts as well, so changing to HDMI won't help.

2. For the Blu-Ray player, I would definitely recommend HDMI. The signal from Blu-Ray is pristine, and there are certain audio codecs on Blu-Ray that are only usable via HDMI. You do not need the optical digital audio connection here -- HDMI carries audio as well as video.

3. You should only need one cable from the Yamaha to the TV, not two. This cable should be HDMI.

4. HDMI cable quality has absolutely nothing to do with the price. HDMI cable quality is governed by how the cable is made, and what certification tests it can pass. You should know that a particular major manufacturer of "high end" HDMI cables actually doesn't even submit their cables for certification.

Monoprice.com has excellent cables (not just HDMI, but everything else as well) for very inexpensive prices. This cable is a 6 foot HDMI 1.3a category 2 certified cable, priced at $4.09.

Also remember that HDMI is digital. There is no such thing as a "better picture" from one HDMI cable over another one. The picture is either there, or it's not.

Monoprice.com can also get you your component cables for $2.74, and your optical cables for $5.49.

5. On the U-Verse STB (Set-Top Box), you will need to go into the menu options to turn on surround sound (Menu -> Options -> Audio Language Options -> Digital Audio Output -> Surround Sound). As mentioned before, if you get audio dropouts, you might need to change this back to stereo.

6. Also on the U-Verse STB, you will need to go into the menu options to turn on HD output (Menu -> Options -> System Options -> Aspect Ratio -> 1080i on High-Definition Screens). You should get the blue light on the front of the STB when this is turned on.

7. Because you have several devices here (TV, AV receiver, U-Verse STB, Blu-Ray player), I highly recommend a good remote to properly control the whole system. The Logitech Harmony remotes are some of the best, and are very easy to program/setup and use. For a base model, try the Harmony 510 at $78. For more bells and whistles (rechargable battery, color touch screen, better ergonomics), but identical functionality, look at the Harmony One.

This will get you fully set up. Post any additional questions you might have here.

sitkom · ‎01-06-2010

Not to be pedantic here, but isn't Motorola or Cisco the ones to finger the HDMI issues on, not U-Verse (which is simply the fiber/data/content service)?... unless it has something to do with the data rate, which may explain the HDMI troubles you've experienced...

Though, thinking out loud, I would assume Cisco and Moto would have a pretty good grip on HDMI at this stage of the HD market evolution.

I understand you are providing recommendations based upon your experience, but to recommend component video over HDMI seems completely nuts. A complete non-starter for me. If the HDMI implementation or data integrity/throughput is not compliant with the needs or standards for today's sets, then u-verse is going to be short lived.

SomeJoe7777 · ‎01-30-2008

sitkom wrote:

Not to be pedantic here, but isn't Motorola or Cisco the ones to finger the HDMI issues on, not U-Verse (which is simply the fiber/data/content service)?... unless it has something to do with the data rate, which may explain the HDMI troubles you've experienced...

Though, thinking out loud, I would assume Cisco and Moto would have a pretty good grip on HDMI at this stage of the HD market evolution.

I understand you are providing recommendations based upon your experience, but to recommend component video over HDMI seems completely nuts. A complete non-starter for me. If the HDMI implementation or data integrity/throughput is not compliant with the needs or standards for today's sets, then u-verse is going to be short lived.

No, the problem is squarely in AT&T's (or possibly Microsoft's) corner. Their Windows CE driver for HDMI is placing the HDMI output chip in 0-255 RGB mode, which is incorrect. They need to fix the driver to output 16-235 RGB, or even better, 16-235 YUV. A bad driver is not the HDMI chip's fault.

The recommendation of component over HDMI is not "completely nuts" at all. First of all, you need to understand that the recommendation is being made given a particular, specific set of circumstances:

1. We're using U-Verse, whose maximum output resolution is 1080i (no 1080p here).

2. U-Verse currently has a black level problem on the HDMI output that many TVs cannot compensate for.

3. U-Verse currently has a compression artifact problem that is annoying.

4. There are no advanced audio codecs in the U-Verse system that could take advantage of HDMI.

In these circumstances, component connections yield a better picture, and not using HDMI doesn't lose anything. Without these initial conditions, the recommendation would be different.

And let's be clear here, we need to focus on the objective: The best possible picture given the circumstances. Remember, you're watching the picture, not the wire going from the STB to the TV. Do not sacrifice your picture quality just so you can feel "advanced" by using HDMI. I would hook up my STB to the TV with a furry pink hose if it would give me a better picture.

This is the equivalent to the people who judge Blu-Ray disc quality by looking at the bitrate meter on their PS3. The objective is picture quality, not bitrate numbers. What are you interested in watching, the movie or the bitrate meter?

Same thing here -- let your eyes be the judge and pay attention to the picture on your TV, not the wire.

JFRAN_1 · ‎01-16-2009

Thanks SomeJoe,

I was actually reading your post about the optimization earlier today and plan on doing that myself for my personal Uverse.

I have a 720 Pioneer 42" Plasma downstairs (about 3 years old) thats hooked up via HDMI and a 46" 1080p Samsung LCD Upstairs which is hooked up via Component.

I personally don't have any black issues on the Plasma which is using HDMI but on my LCD upstairs I do notice quite a bit of what I think is compression related issues for sports (the original post that led me to your optimization thread was someone else complaining about football games looking bad). The pixels seem "blocky" at times and the closer I get to the Television the more noticeable it is. Dont really see it as much on the Plasma which is using HDMI but I also sit farther back when watching that television so maybe it's just not as perceptible.

Regardless, neither of my sets are "optimized", so I plan on going through those steps and your post above will be very helpful when setting up my dad's set with surround sound. I can't remember if the receiver has Component hookups on the back as I was shopping based on HDMI connections, but think that any receiver with HDMI would surely have component.

If I do go the route of Component for Uverse and HDMI for Blu-Ray, is there any need to even route the Component through a receiver from STB and then receiver to TV? I should be able to run the video component cables directly from STB to TV and then audio from STB to receiver if I use an optical cable right?

-JF

SomeJoe7777 · ‎01-30-2008

JFRAN wrote:

Regardless, neither of my sets are "optimized", so I plan on going through those steps and your post above will be very helpful when setting up my dad's set with surround sound. I can't remember if the receiver has Component hookups on the back as I was shopping based on HDMI connections, but think that any receiver with HDMI would surely have component.

If I do go the route of Component for Uverse and HDMI for Blu-Ray, is there any need to even route the Component through a receiver from STB and then receiver to TV? I should be able to run the video component cables directly from STB to TV and then audio from STB to receiver if I use an optical cable right?

Yes, most AV receivers with HDMI have at least 1 set of component inputs, and they will convert it to HDMI for the output.

But you're correct, if you use component, there's no reason to go through the AV receiver, since the optical will carry the audio. However, that means that to switch playback sources (like U-Verse to Blu-Ray), you will not only need to switch the source on the AV receiver, but also on the TV as well. This is where the Harmony remote will make things much easier.

sitkom · ‎01-06-2010

SomeJoe7777 wrote:
sitkom wrote:
Not to be pedantic here, but isn't Motorola or Cisco the ones to finger the HDMI issues on, not U-Verse (which is simply the fiber/data/content service)?... unless it has something to do with the data rate, which may explain the HDMI troubles you've experienced...

Though, thinking out loud, I would assume Cisco and Moto would have a pretty good grip on HDMI at this stage of the HD market evolution.

I understand you are providing recommendations based upon your experience, but to recommend component video over HDMI seems completely nuts. A complete non-starter for me. If the HDMI implementation or data integrity/throughput is not compliant with the needs or standards for today's sets, then u-verse is going to be short lived.

No, the problem is squarely in AT&T's (or possibly Microsoft's) corner. Their Windows CE driver for HDMI is placing the HDMI output chip in 0-255 RGB mode, which is incorrect. They need to fix the driver to output 16-235 RGB, or even better, 16-235 YUV. A bad driver is not the HDMI chip's fault.

The recommendation of component over HDMI is not "completely nuts" at all. First of all, you need to understand that the recommendation is being made given a particular, specific set of circumstances:

1. We're using U-Verse, whose maximum output resolution is 1080i (no 1080p here).
2. U-Verse currently has a black level problem on the HDMI output that many TVs cannot compensate for.
3. U-Verse currently has a compression artifact problem that is annoying.
4. There are no advanced audio codecs in the U-Verse system that could take advantage of HDMI.

In these circumstances, component connections yield a better picture, and not using HDMI doesn't lose anything. Without these initial conditions, the recommendation would be different.

And let's be clear here, we need to focus on the objective: The best possible picture given the circumstances. Remember, you're watching the picture, not the wire going from the STB to the TV. Do not sacrifice your picture quality just so you can feel "advanced" by using HDMI. I would hook up my STB to the TV with a furry pink hose if it would give me a better picture.

This is the equivalent to the people who judge Blu-Ray disc quality by looking at the bitrate meter on their PS3. The objective is picture quality, not bitrate numbers. What are you interested in watching, the movie or the bitrate meter?

Same thing here -- let your eyes be the judge and pay attention to the picture on your TV, not the wire.

I'm in violent agreement with you on the merits of picture quality over all other metrics, including interconnect.

I also see what you are saying regarding the colorspace depth on u-verse. I know all current media including BluRay, DVD, HD Broadcast use 16-235 and what you are saying is that, somehow, the ce drivers for the uverse boxes stretch the colorspace from 16-235 to 0-255 (so 16 becomes 0 and 235 becomes 255, etc.)... are you certain that is the case, or are they simply adding the pluge (0-15) and overshoot (235-255) to the signal to provide forward compatability to full-spectrum displays? The reason I ask is that it is a non-trivial calculation to *stretch* the colorspace rather than just overlay the 0-15 and 235-255 with 0s and 1s. If it is the latter, then most modern digital displays should have no issue resolving the correct 'black' and 'white' via HDMI... unless I am missing something.

BTW, 1 cable is always better than 5...

SomeJoe7777 · ‎01-30-2008

sitkom wrote:

I'm in violent agreement with you on the merits of picture quality over all other metrics, including interconnect.

I also see what you are saying regarding the colorspace depth on u-verse. I know all current media including BluRay, DVD, HD Broadcast use 16-235 and what you are saying is that, somehow, the ce drivers for the uverse boxes stretch the colorspace from 16-235 to 0-255 (so 16 becomes 0 and 235 becomes 255, etc.)... are you certain that is the case, or are they simply adding the pluge (0-15) and overshoot (235-255) to the signal to provide forward compatability to full-spectrum displays? The reason I ask is that it is a non-trivial calculation to *stretch* the colorspace rather than just overlay the 0-15 and 235-255 with 0s and 1s. If it is the latter, then most modern digital displays should have no issue resolving the correct 'black' and 'white' via HDMI... unless I am missing something.

BTW, 1 cable is always better than 5...

Yes, the U-Verse box is actually "stretching" the color space to 0-255. Stretching is actually the incorrect term here, because it's not just a remap of the values, they are actually performing an incorrect color space transformation.

Once the MPEG-4 picture data is decoded and decompressed, the output of the decoder is a format generically called planar YUV. This is a chroma downsampled format. This means that for ever pixel on the screen, there is one luminance value (16-235) (referred to as the Y value), and then there is a differential red chroma value (16-235) shared by 4 pixels (referred to as the U value), and a differential blue chroma value (16-235) shared by 4 pixels (referred to as the V value). When you add up the total size occupied by 4 pixels, thats 4 bytes of luminance information and 2 bytes of chrominance information = 6 bytes = 48 bits over 4 pixels = 12 bits per pixel. Thus, this format is 50% of the size that 8-bit RGB would take up. The formal name of this format is 4:2:0 YUV. And yes, this means that the picture resolution is actually not full HD in terms of color, but that's OK because our eyes are much less sensitive to color than to luminance.

At some point, the 4:2:0 YUV data has to be transformed to 4:4:4 RGB data (i.e. standard 24 bits per pixel, red/green/blue). Normally this conversion is handled in the TV. This conversion is non-trivial, and there are different conversion algorithms for SD and for HD. The SD algorithm is given by ITU Rec. 601, the HD algorithm is given by ITU Rec. 709. The algorithms are different because HD has a larger color space (gamut) than SD.

Because the conversion is normally handled in the TV, what is transmitted over HDMI is supposed to be 4:2:0 YUV.

However, the U-Verse box is doing something different. It is doing the YUV -> RGB transformation in the STB, and sending 4:4:4 RGB over HDMI to the TV.

It is perfectly legal to send 4:4:4 RGB over HDMI, but there is supposed to be a negotiation procedure between the two HDMI devices so that the TV knows what it's going to receive. The U-Verse box is either not performing this negotiation at all, or doing it incorrectly, or is telling the TV it will send one format when it actually is sending a different one.

As a result, the TV expects to receive 4:4:4 RGB with 16-235 values, but the U-Verse STB is actually sending 4:4:4 RGB with 0-255 values. This crushes both blacks and whites.

It would be preferable if the U-Verse STB would skip the transformation altogether and just send raw 4:2:0 YUV data over HDMI, and let the TV perform the color transformation. It would likely be more accurate anyway.