2wire 3600HGV supported REN?

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

Tier 1 finally transferred to tier 2. Tier 2 actually understood the question, took a long time searching and finally got authorization to give me Motorola's number (It seems Motorola actually manufactures these things or at least parts of them). Motorola looked for a while and didn't have any department to forward me to so they gave me the "2wire" number. That turned out to be Pace's (that's who bought 2wire) auto attendant... "Pace only sells direct to ISPs. Please contact your ISP for support." great... That sucked up most of the afternoon.

The question is this: "What is the supported REN out of the rj11 jack of the 3600HGV?".

Maybe what I want is voltage and hz but REN would work for a start.

I have an Olympia OL3000.2 caller ID info globe (haha, Olympia is out of business too). The info globe works/worked flawlessly on AT&T POTS service (also had DSL on the line). Since I installed the 3600HGV it has detected exactly 2 calls out of maybe 100. Once immediately after being plugged in and once some many number of calls later.

3600HGV -> Info Globe -> Panasonic cordless phone base unit. The Panasonic detects ring and displays caller id flawlessly. I swapped the Info Globe with an ancient Pac*Bell caller ID unit and it detects ring and displays caller id every time (on it's teeny tiny dark display). OK, fine, it's actually 3600HGV -> back to NT1. Only using the NT1 as a junction box. From the NT1 I have 1 circuit to an analog phone (about 5' run) and a circuit back to the patch panel and then the info globe. The run from the 3600HGV to the NT1 and back is all over pairs in a CAT6). In any event the phone behind the info globe works fine as do other CID displays.

So it *appears* that the Info Globe might be on the sensitive side. I'm thinking the place to start is the ring output of the 3600HGV (supposed to be something like 90V at 20hz?) and the place to start with that is the 3600HGV specs...

I want to make the info globe work. It has a large, bright CID display readable from 360*. And I don't want to spend around $100 on something else.

Any ideas? I was on POTS with the 6meg ADSL. I went with u-verse since I could go to 12meg for about $3/month more. I'm not under contract so I suppose I could just switch back.

aviewer · ‎03-11-2010

SRTMagnum - my first thought is that the connecting wire/jacks are worn out. But, you may have tried the same wire with the devices that worked. Could the jack in the globe be corroded or loose so that the connection is bad?

If you suspect the globe is overly sensitive you could try a 100 ohm resistor on each side of the line.

Maybe the batteries in the globe are a problem. Fresh batteries - no corrosion - no loose connection.

Maybe a bad solder joint in the globe.

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

I think it's unlikely the connecting wire/jacks are worn. The line goes from the RG to the globe IN, then from the globe OUT to the cordless phone base unit. The cordless phone works fine (and displays CID as expected). The globe doesn't detect the inbound call. Same wiring that worked fine when plugged into the adsl filter when I had pots phone service. When I swapped in a different CID display device it was unplugged and plugged back in. The jacks and sockets are tight and looked good. ...and the phone on the other side of the globe works fine.

I was guessing (for no particular reason or electrical knowledge) that maybe the ring was under voltage? Adding resistors would drop it further right? By "sensitive" I was thinking maybe the globe needs full standard voltage for the ring to detect? (EE I am not).

Globe batteries -- have probably been dead for 10 years? It's powered and I think the batteries are only for backing up the CID and/or settings for extended outages or storage. I replaced them anyway since you mentioned it, and yep, they were the original batteries that came with the unit -. No corrosion (amazingly enough) or loose connections in the battery box.

U-verse is/has deployed tens of thousands of the 3600HGV? And a pretty normal install has customers using their existing analog/POTS phones and devices. I figure 2wire spec'd the ring voltage at something. I figure Motorola manufactured and tested to that spec. I figure AT&T tested for that spec as well before deploying this model.

I thought I would start with that spec. If the spec is lower than "normal" and the RG meets that spec then I'll go from there. If I measure and my particular RG is defective then I can lobby for a replacement. But I need to know what the 3600HGV is spec'd at. But I'll go ahead and see if I can get a measurement for now.

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

Ok... I have a Fluke 88V.

Cut off a piece of phone cord with a rj11 jack on it and plugged into the line1/line2 jack on the 3600HGV (same jack the line running to the globe and then the phone was plugged into). Maybe not such a good connection as I just wrapped the bare leads around the meter probes.

DC voltage with the line idle = 47.92 V

DC voltage during ring: about 14 V (not steady. drops immediately to about 16 V then bounces around between 13.5 to 15)

hz with line idle = 0 hz

hz during ring = 26.28 hz (pretty steady once settled. Consistent over multiple rings)

Can anybody interpret that? (as above, EE I am not)

aviewer · ‎03-11-2010

SRTMagnum - Your line voltage is right on the "standard 48v" & the ring does go to a low frequency AC. I do not recall the actual frequency.

Standard (POTS) ring voltage & current is significantly higher than talk voltage - enough to give you a good whack - but you may not be able to measure it accurately due to low frequency - it is not DC.

How about trying the globe without the phone plugged in to it
I'll take another look at globe manual.

Computer-Joe · ‎09-19-2008

Well, as far as switching back to regular DSL, that probably is not an option since you converted to Uverse. Since they are not doing any new DSL infrastructure, DSL lines are a very finite item and when you released your DSL for Uverse, they probably had your DSL line reprovisioned to someone else within 48 hours.

As far as the REN goes, the standard used to be five. In other words you could have up to five phones on your circuit. That being said, modern phones (and other equipment) have been at less than one REN for at least a decade, some as low as 0.1 REN so the standard may have been lowered considerably especially in lthe case of voip ports on gateways.

You would have to start by deteriminig the REN on all the telephony devices you are using. I would think if total is less than 3 REN you should be good. If your device ratings add up to 3 or less REN, it could be the components in the ring circuit for the Globe have deteriorated.

You could also disconnect everything but the Globe and call your line from a cell phone several times to see if the globe will operate consistantly. As well, if the Globe has a ringer that can be muted you could try that to see if that makes it work more consistantly.

There is always this route as well: http://www.sandman.com/longloop.html . These devices can either boost ring voltage, or loop current, depending on which way you need to go.

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
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I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
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“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

Total REN seems to be OK. Only 3 devices. Globe: 0.8, Cordless phone: 0.8, old Bell phone: 1.8

Took some more measurements at different places.

Output jack off the 3600HGV

After run from 3600HGV -> patch panel -> NT1 -> patch panel -- (NT1 also has a short run to the Bell phone)

Output jack off the globe (with Bell phone still connected to NT1)

All measured the same

During ring (consistent over multiple rings) frequency goes 20.48 -> 23.97 -> 25.68 -> 22.59 -> 25.88 -> 22.59

Duty cycle is between 45.5 and 46%

Pulse width is 22.1 ms for the first half of the ring and 19.1ms for the second half.

Who knew I should have taken measurements for comparison before they turned off the POTS...

Yea, I suppose the globe ring circuit may have deteriorated. ... or maybe my 3600HGV is out of spec? Anybody curious enough to measure the ring on their 3600HGV?

If there was some way to get the specs I might be able to get mine swapped if it's not in tolerance.

Yeesh, AT&T says they either don't have the info or won't divulge it and refer you to 2wire. 2wire was bought by Pace who will only talk to their ISP customers.

The ring boosters look cool (and appear to address the frequency and square sine wave as well) but maybe over my cost threshold for giving up on the info globe.

aviewer · ‎03-11-2010

You certainly have put a lot into this. It is a shame it is not working for you. A few people have posted having similar problems with phones.

While you cannot go back to DSL, you can go back to POTS. I have U-verse with POTS.

If you decide to move on, I recommend Telnote - http://www.telnote.com/ .

I have had a 9" for about four years - same as I have had U-verse. I got it as a work around for caller ID on TV.

Mine is on POTS. YOU could contact them just to be sure it works with U-voice.

Or, if you are into cool, get a wireless phone set with talking caller ID. You can add friends and family to the call list with first name, nickname or anything you like. While you are upgrading get one with bluetooth & use it to talk on your cellphone.

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

I'm a networking software engineer so, while it is disappointing that my info globe is not working, it is kind of fun tinkering and trouble shooting the problem.

Pretty sure Telnote was one of 2 large CID displays that got good reviews when I was browsing. Does it have a good angle of view? I'm going to want at least 90*. One of the really nice features about the info globe is 360* viewing and it's LED. but I'm not ready to go to plan B just yet.

Computer-Joe · ‎09-19-2008

aviewer wrote:
You certainly have put a lot into this. It is a shame it is not working for you. A few people have posted having similar problems with phones.

While you cannot go back to DSL, you can go back to POTS. I have U-verse with POTS.

If you decide to move on, I recommend Telnote - http://www.telnote.com/ .

I have had a 9" for about four years - same as I have had U-verse. I got it as a work around for caller ID on TV.

Mine is on POTS. YOU could contact them just to be sure it works with U-voice.

Or, if you are into cool, get a wireless phone set with talking caller ID. You can add friends and family to the call list with first name, nickname or anything you like. While you are upgrading get one with bluetooth & use it to talk on your cellphone.

Those work pretty good, we've got one. The one drawback is you can only type in the names, you can't tell it how pronounce the names, so some get a little mangled.

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

Computer-Joe · ‎09-19-2008

SRTMagnum wrote:
Total REN seems to be OK. Only 3 devices. Globe: 0.8, Cordless phone: 0.8, old Bell phone: 1.8

Took some more measurements at different places.
Output jack off the 3600HGV
After run from 3600HGV -> patch panel -> NT1 -> patch panel -- (NT1 also has a short run to the Bell phone)
Output jack off the globe (with Bell phone still connected to NT1)
All measured the same

During ring (consistent over multiple rings) frequency goes 20.48 -> 23.97 -> 25.68 -> 22.59 -> 25.88 -> 22.59
Duty cycle is between 45.5 and 46%
Pulse width is 22.1 ms for the first half of the ring and 19.1ms for the second half.

Who knew I should have taken measurements for comparison before they turned off the POTS...
Yea, I suppose the globe ring circuit may have deteriorated. ... or maybe my 3600HGV is out of spec? Anybody curious enough to measure the ring on their 3600HGV?

If there was some way to get the specs I might be able to get mine swapped if it's not in tolerance.
Yeesh, AT&T says they either don't have the info or won't divulge it and refer you to 2wire. 2wire was bought by Pace who will only talk to their ISP customers.

The ring boosters look cool (and appear to address the frequency and square sine wave as well) but maybe over my cost threshold for giving up on the info globe.

I have a feeling your pushing the REN on the 3600HGV with 3.4 REN. From what I've been able to dig up it appears that most standalone VOIP adaters provide 5 REN (or so they say), but most gateway/routers with integrated VOIP ports only push 3 REN. Still unable to locate any specific data on the 2WIRE product though.

Most of the stats your're collecting are unimportant. Your voltage looked fine, the only other specs you need is the current load or impedance. That is what will determine whether the 3600 can carry the load.

I would suggest disconnecting the Western Electric phone (1.8 REN) and see if that alleviates the problem. If it does, it's time to pitch that old thing.

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

Definitely tried it with only the globe plugged directly into the 3600HGV. No difference.

aviewer · ‎03-11-2010

SRTMagnum - Can you take it to work or a friend with POTS & verify that it still works? If it does the two devices must be at opposite ends of the standard range.

You can either look into going back to a POTS line or moving on to a different device.

The Telnote is readable 180 degrees. I did recently get a new alarm clock that is disappointing because the numbers are so narrow it is unreadable off center.

SRTMagnum · ‎04-13-2012

Yea, I'll have to try it on a pots line somewhere again. Remember that it did pick up call/caller id/time twice off the 3600HGV. Once when first connected and once again 8 days ago (after being connected and up for days). My supposition has always been that one or both devices are close to some threshold. Olympia is out of business so no hope there for information on internal implementation or updated firmware. I figured I start by comparing/checking the 3600HGV output. Against mfg specs and against what I likely had with POTS and go from there. If it wasn't within mfg specs or borderline then I could probably get AT&T to just swap it try my luck with the replacement. Who knows, it might be detecting ring and then bailing out because of some unexpected data or options following. It does irk me a bit that I can't seem to get specs on the AT&T supplied device interface meant to be connected to customer equipment. sigh

If I go to another device it looks like either the Telnote or Brighter ID'er. Leaning towards the Brighter ID'er since it's LED and Telnote looks to be LCD. ...neither come with a blue display...