Help 'raise the bar' on the 5% by using your connection

[yozhbk]

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

[acemonster]

Does anyone have a copy of the original Unlimited Contract from the Mid-2000s???

The contract I'm talking about here is the one when iPhone just came out and people were making the switch from Blackberrys with unlimited to the iPhone plan.

If anyone DOES have this, please scan it into PDF and post here or send me a PM.

I'm currently in talks with the offices of Senior Senator Chuck Schumer and Governor Andrew Quomo. Senator Schumer has a great track record for listening to his constituents and he's extremely helpful when it comes to unfair business practices by large corporations.

[Per Guidelines: Keep it Relevant and Appropriate]

[acemonster]

Also - what many people fail to realize is that the ToS is no the same as the Contract that we all signed. ToS are arbitrarily set by the company. Therefore, they do not have to be (technically stating) legally binding. Contracts do point to abiding by the rules in the Terms of Service, but only if the terms do not materially modify those set forth in the original contract.

One of the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (and also of 1999), state that terms in the contract have to be reasonable. If the court thinks the term in question is unreasonable, that term will be void.

"Reasonable” according to section 11 of the act, is: the term must be “a fair and reasonable one to be included having regard to the circumstances which were, or ought reasonably to have been, known to or in the contemplation of the parties when the contract was made”.

I am not entirely sure that it was made known to us at the time of signing the contract that the bandwidth speed of the plan was subject to modification. Furthemore, we "relied" upon ATT service agents at stores, online and via phone in explaining the plan to us prior to signing a contract.

I still need to search through my files to see if I can find my copy, but would appreciate if anyone has an original copy that they could upload.


FYI: I am a student of law, but not yet an attorney.

[wingrider01 ACE - Expert]

---

yozhbk wrote:

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

---

again unlimited does not equate automagicly to unlimited speed, there are two distinct and seperate items. No where in any agreement is the definition of the speed you will recieve defined in concrete numbers, a range from 0 to max speed is the normal definition, all ads I ahve seen is "UP TO".  Money costs > undocumented speed definitions, Not a violation at all

I have a 100MB broadband connection, the document states UP TO 100 MB, it does not say you will get 100MB

[yozhbk]

---

acemonster wrote:
Also - what many people fail to realize is that the ToS is no the same as the Contract that we all signed. ToS are arbitrarily set by the company. Therefore, they do not have to be (technically stating) legally binding. Contracts do point to abiding by the rules in the Terms of Service, but only if the terms do not materially modify those set forth in the original contract.

One of the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (and also of 1999), state that terms in the contract have to be reasonable. If the court thinks the term in question is unreasonable, that term will be void.

"Reasonable” according to section 11 of the act, is: the term must be “a fair and reasonable one to be included having regard to the circumstances which were, or ought reasonably to have been, known to or in the contemplation of the parties when the contract was made”.

I am not entirely sure that it was made known to us at the time of signing the contract that the bandwidth speed of the plan was subject to modification. Furthemore, we "relied" upon ATT service agents at stores, online and via phone in explaining the plan to us prior to signing a contract.

I still need to search through my files to see if I can find my copy, but would appreciate if anyone has an original copy that they could upload.


FYI: I am a student of law, but not yet an attorney.

---

This is very intresting, I`m trying to go thru the stuff that I have, but cant find anything, I did notice that they changed the feature names for iPhone and for LTE devices, it used to say 4G for iPhone 4S unlimited, now it says Data Unlimited for iPhone 4S.... So they are trying to get slick here.... I just cant belive they are being allowed to do this.... Atleast have enough sense to start doing it past 3GB since other plans... 

[yozhbk]

---

wingrider01 wrote:

---

yozhbk wrote:

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

---

again unlimited does not equate automagicly to unlimited speed, there are two distinct and seperate items. No where in any agreement is the definition of the speed you will recieve defined in concrete numbers, a range from 0 to max speed is the normal definition, all ads I ahve seen is "UP TO".  Money costs > undocumented speed definitions, Not a violation at all

I have a 100MB broadband connection, the document states UP TO 100 MB, it does not say you will get 100MB

---

It clearly states 3G/4G/LTE/EDGE speeds, even if it says up to does mean that you should be able to hit those speeds or close to it, otherways any provider can write speeds of up to 1000000000000000MBits and that would make it true..... Your statements are wrong sorry. IF you are promised  3G service at unlimited capacity you should get 3G speeds, the feature that was bought is advirtised as 3G service unlimited data, not 3G unlimited to 2GB and then at GRPS speeds. 

[yozhbk]

---

yozhbk wrote:

---

wingrider01 wrote:

---

yozhbk wrote:

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

---

again unlimited does not equate automagicly to unlimited speed, there are two distinct and seperate items. No where in any agreement is the definition of the speed you will recieve defined in concrete numbers, a range from 0 to max speed is the normal definition, all ads I ahve seen is "UP TO".  Money costs > undocumented speed definitions, Not a violation at all

I have a 100MB broadband connection, the document states UP TO 100 MB, it does not say you will get 100MB

---

It clearly states 3G/4G/LTE/EDGE speeds, even if it says up to does mean that you should be able to hit those speeds or close to it, otherways any provider can write speeds of up to 1000000000000000MBits and that would make it true..... Your statements are wrong sorry. IF you are promised  3G service at unlimited capacity you should get 3G speeds, the feature that was bought is advirtised as 3G service unlimited data, not 3G unlimited to 2GB and then at GRPS speeds. 

---

I hate to use analogies here, since people are over using it, but let me ask you about paying for unlimited voice minutes, if you are paying for unlimited voice service, and lets say they decide  that at 700 minutes you are brining there network to over capacity, they can start limiting your calls to 30 seconds ? or after lets say 700 minutes the voice quality degregates to the point where you cant hear the person at the other end ? Would that be normal ? This is same thing, people have to come to new age and realize that data is as or even more important then voice... 

[seajohn]

---

aristizzle wrote:

---

seajohn wrote:

---

aristizzle wrote:

6.2 What Are The Intended Purposes Of The Wireless Data Service?

While most common uses for Internet browsing, email and intranet access are permitted by your data plan, there are certain uses that cause extreme network capacity issues and interference with the network and are therefore prohibited ...

<Examples of prohibited activities>

 ...Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows.

---

Is that the exact same wording which was in place while the unlimited accounts were offered?

To my reading, the purpose of section 6.2 is to specify prohibited activies  (using the data connection as a server, hacking, P2P, etc.)  which you may not use your data plan for.   If you are using your phone for any of these activites, we (AT&T) reserve the right to cut you off. Nowhere does it talk about using too much data.  It explicitly states "most common uses for Internet browsing, email and intranet access are permitted by your data plan" with no mention of usage limits.

Where the section refers to "certain uses that cause extreme network capacity issues and interference with the network and are therefore prohibited" this is clearly talking about the list of prohibited activities, not 'overuse' of the network.

For AT&T to be saying that unlimited users who reach 2GB 'adversely impact' its network according to the above section makes no sense, given that for the same monthly cost AT&T allows tiered users to consume 3GB.
 

---

It's not going to read "if you use too much data we are going to throttle you". If you take the time to read it and analyze what it says, it is saying that if you are using the data excessively AT&T has the right to modify your service (throttle).

---

The whole point of my posting was that I did take time to read and analyze what is says, and nowhere does it say anything about excessive data for 'common' uses as being grounds for modifying service.  The purpose of that section is to spell out activities which you can and cannot perform on AT&T's network.  It cannot be used as a justification for AT&T to throttle service of a customer who is using Internet browsing, email or intranet access.

[davidusr]

You can no longer stream Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Youtube, Netfix or any other audio/video, therefore your limited. Unlimited no longer exists.

[Dellman87]

Just a heads up - my call with at&t is almost done with editing. I just had to remove my personal information and remove ALL the wait time!

I will upload to YouTube soon!. I'm excited to release this !!!!

*update*

Processing.

[seajohn]

---

Dellman87 wrote:

Just a heads up - my call with at&t is almost done with editing. I just had to remove my personal information and remove ALL the wait time!

I will upload to YouTube soon!. I'm excited to release this !!!!

*update*

YouTube says it is too large. Working on compressing it.

---

I hope you compress it a lot so that people on AT&T's unlimited data plan will be able to view it!

[Captain Quantum]

I'm wondering if all this heat and media attn is justification for me waiting around...I mean the sheer abysmally shortsighted way this was rolled out (or the need to throttle <2gb/month users at all) really has me wondering about AT&Ts soundness as a company, including their infrastructure, and most deff their reps & higher ups for waving their finger at me for doing exactly what I've always done (completely normal data usage). I've had my fill of AT&Ts legalise thank you. I understand tos aup ftw and fml... If they need to throttle me bc I use 2.1 gb, (horrible biz practices asside) then what is keeping me around? I guess I'm looking for advice as an unlimited off contract customer...should I wait around? Will I always be throttled for around 2gb of data usage? What will the outcome be if AT&T does decide to rethink this policy? I've got my eye on Verizon's double data deal at 4gb for $30. But I'd feel like a schmuck if I switched and AT&T retooled this policy...Verizon unlimited customers are only being throttled for 3G usage, not LTE, I was hopping AT&T would follow suit. But alas it seems they are targeting everyone...ESP LTE users.

[Dellman87]

haha!

Went from 61 MB to 16MB. It is a 20 minute video. ( before editing...it was an hour and a half long )

*update*

Splitting video into 2 different videos to upload on YouTube.

[wingrider01 ACE - Expert]

---

yozhbk wrote:

---

wingrider01 wrote:

---

yozhbk wrote:

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

---

again unlimited does not equate automagicly to unlimited speed, there are two distinct and seperate items. No where in any agreement is the definition of the speed you will recieve defined in concrete numbers, a range from 0 to max speed is the normal definition, all ads I ahve seen is "UP TO".  Money costs > undocumented speed definitions, Not a violation at all

I have a 100MB broadband connection, the document states UP TO 100 MB, it does not say you will get 100MB

---

It clearly states 3G/4G/LTE/EDGE speeds, even if it says up to does mean that you should be able to hit those speeds or close to it, otherways any provider can write speeds of up to 1000000000000000MBits and that would make it true..... Your statements are wrong sorry. IF you are promised  3G service at unlimited capacity you should get 3G speeds, the feature that was bought is advirtised as 3G service unlimited data, not 3G unlimited to 2GB and then at GRPS speeds. 

---

define minimum and maximum for those speeds as how it relates to your agreement and where are those numbers stated in your agreement? You where promised unlimited data, youa re getting it even when throttled. The definition of those speeds as set forth in the standards sets PEAK speeds, basic the same as a broadband carrier states "UP TO" so 3g can be anywhere from .01 MBit/s to what the recent  EVDO Rev B that offers peak rates of 14.7 Mbit/s downstream, there is no lower limited defined. No where does it state that you will hit the PEAK speeds 100 percent of the time for 100 percent of the billing period. It gives the TLA's for the carrier transport method but does not give the promised numbers

[BINMAM]

Are you serious?!?!? Have you used a throttled phone?!?  They are completely unusable!  That's pretty FRICKEN limited if you ask me!!! 

Keep quoting your TOS. It doesn't matter.  We are getting screwed! You can put whatever spin on this nightmare policy that you want, we the consumer don't care. You treat us like crap, we go elsewhere and take everyone we can with us because AT$T sucks!

[Captain Quantum]

Wingrider

May I ask a question. You seem to be the AT&T legalise expert, as evidenced by the 100 something pages of you posting about definitions of TOS and terms used in the TOS.. Could I get you to step back for a weee second from that and ask, your opinion on the practice of throttling users like myself that use 2gb or less? I mean in your opinion, is this the answer? Not looking for broad definfing terms of the TOS i signed, rather your gut reaction to this policy as a whole.

Do I deserve it?

[BINMAM]

How would you like if your data was so slow you only pulled .5MB out of your 100MB connection. You'd be screaming too.

[Dellman87]

Videos are up! Here are the videos with me calling att about the top 5% text.

Sorry I had to break them into 2 different videos. It was 20 minutes edited - 1.30 hrs without editing.

Video #1

Video #2

Hope you guys enjoy!

[BINMAM]

This is the obvious logical conclusion unless you're a paid rep.

[BINMAM]

I hope they do, then I can leave without paying you jackwagons the ETF.
It would be a blessing for all.

AT$T sucks!

[BINMAM]

Yes I do and I have a video to prove it.

[BINMAM]

That's the plan, to go elsewhere and take as many with me as I can.
I'm quite certain that if you signed a contract stating that you could have free Family Talk for life you would be friggenpissed when they exercise some vague verbiage in their mighty TOS to shut you down.

[kwelker]

I had to register to reply to this topic.  I was a victim of the unfair throttling policy for the past 3 days.  My speeds were cut to ~150kbps, which is less than 5% of normal.  This extreme slowdown is essentially a denial of service and a breach of contract.  This is all repetition from what other people have posted, what I have to add to the thread is that after repeated reassurances that my data speeds would go back to normal at midnight last night (the end of my billing cycle) they have not returned to normal and in fact are SLOWER than they were yesterday.  I spent more than 2 hours on the phone today trying to get this sorted out and can't help but feel that if they had left everything alone that I would not be going on my third day or not being able to load their simple text only test webpage.  http://www.att.com/ttr

Needless to say I am very, very far from being a happy satisfied customer with a contract for wireless internet service.

I ahve filed an FCC complaint.

[yozhbk]

---

wingrider01 wrote:

---

yozhbk wrote:

---

wingrider01 wrote:

---

yozhbk wrote:

I`m really amazed how you fail to see this point. Its ok for ETF to be waived if price of txt message is raised, but if you purchase unlimited 3G/4G/LTE feature and only get it at the 3G/4G/LTE speed up to 2GB, how is it not same things ? 

You purchase a plan that says this is 3G speeds data at unlimited capacity meaning there is no cap on how much data you can use at 3G speeds, then at 2GB you are told you can’t use your unlimited feature that you bought as 3G at 3G speeds on unlimited bases... How is this not a violation of contract T&C or anything else .... 

---

again unlimited does not equate automagicly to unlimited speed, there are two distinct and seperate items. No where in any agreement is the definition of the speed you will recieve defined in concrete numbers, a range from 0 to max speed is the normal definition, all ads I ahve seen is "UP TO".  Money costs > undocumented speed definitions, Not a violation at all

I have a 100MB broadband connection, the document states UP TO 100 MB, it does not say you will get 100MB

---

It clearly states 3G/4G/LTE/EDGE speeds, even if it says up to does mean that you should be able to hit those speeds or close to it, otherways any provider can write speeds of up to 1000000000000000MBits and that would make it true..... Your statements are wrong sorry. IF you are promised  3G service at unlimited capacity you should get 3G speeds, the feature that was bought is advirtised as 3G service unlimited data, not 3G unlimited to 2GB and then at GRPS speeds. 

---

define minimum and maximum for those speeds as how it relates to your agreement and where are those numbers stated in your agreement? You where promised unlimited data, youa re getting it even when throttled. The definition of those speeds as set forth in the standards sets PEAK speeds, basic the same as a broadband carrier states "UP TO" so 3g can be anywhere from .01 MBit/s to what the recent  EVDO Rev B that offers peak rates of 14.7 Mbit/s downstream, there is no lower limited defined. No where does it state that you will hit the PEAK speeds 100 percent of the time for 100 percent of the billing period. It gives the TLA's for the carrier transport method but does not give the promised numbers

---

Again you are wrong, they are stating that due to network conditions, this is then limiting your speed, not the actual network condition, you are not able to hit peak speed past a special not defined limit that they are putting forward, not due to issues  on the network, again on 3G you should be able to hit some peak speeds, but if they are limiting it at some number then you cant. No where in the agreement it said that they can limit your speed at some point, only due to network conditions which means outages, congestion etc...  If at some point they are just saying this is the speed you getting they are taking you off the 3G service and providing you sub-GPRS speeds, which is in not what you bought.... Again you can break it down how you want and I`m not a lawyer or claim to be one, but work with carriers all the time, we are sold a pipe with 3G speeds, we are told 3G speeds will give us unlimited data, now they are saying at some point your 3G data will no longer be 3G it will be much much slower for the remaineder of the cycle. So if on LTE I eat 2GB in first day, 99% of my billing cycle is at GPRS speeds now is that a wrong with your justification ? 

[onebluefishee2]

Me too @ BINMAM ! 

My plan is to take all my iphones elsewhere.  I called today and the AT&T rep actually told me that by the end of the year all their unlimited plans will be nonexistant.  He said that Verizon & Spint are lying to everyone.  He gave me $30 off my bill on both of my accounts (we have 8 accounts) for six months but I still am not going to put up with this!   It will cost me over $1,500 to cancel all the phones so it may take a while but I am not renewing -- The ONLY reason we have AT&T is because they had the IPhone but now everyone does.  I've had tons of dropped calls and have put up with it!  At&t will go broke if everyone cancels!!!!   

[davidusr]

What I gather from Dellman's you tube video, is no one at AT&T could answer his question.

[Captain Quantum]

@Dellman87

That was nice. You asked all the right questions, and voiced very well exactly what we are all feeling. Even the AT&T reps are being throttled! But they are abysmally clueless.

I could tell the reps were at their wits end with your thoughtful and researched questions. You really put a fine point on it, good on ya. So now...I'm waiting this out a bit longer but am not on contract so am really hoping AT&T will 1) make some semblance of an effort to make this right or 2) I'm outta here.

[BINMAM]

What I gather from Dellman's you tube video, is AT$T would rather shed its customer base than increase their network capacity.

Thanks for posting Dellman.

[Dellman87]

Thanks BINMAN and Captain Quantum!

[4sskyrocket]

Good job Dellman. I know the AT&T service reps are taking the heat while the big shot who made the call is hiding behind them.